Cabin Heater Options for CD27

[atcowboy]

I've been thinking of getting a cabin heater for my CD27 and have been casually looking since I pulled my boat in early November.

In that casual research, what I discovered is there are A LOT of different options for cabin heaters. Enough that I feel overwhelmed.

One system that had caught my eye was the Wallas stove, a diesel stove that can be equipped with a flip-lid that vents the stovetop heat with a small fan. Closing the stop top (like a laptop) converts it to heater mode, where a thermostat controls the temperature output of the stove. It seems like a really great solution for the very small interior space of a 27', and also removes the open-flame hazard of the alcohol stove there currently. Unfortunately, it seems like the price for these has not only gone up but the American distributor seems to be out of stock.

The other heaters I have found have been what I'll term "torpedo" heaters that get hidden somewhere in the boat, with exhaust and heated air vented through hoses. These are also prolific in the van life scene, with some China knock-offs at $140. Most seem to be diesel, but there must be propane flavors also. The problem I see with these is the space taken away from storage, as well as routing the exhaust. I've read that the cabin heat from these can be very hot (200*F) so even the wanted hot air seems like it would take nearly as much care as the exhaust.

The last type of heater I've seen are I guess what I'll call "stoves". Something that gets mounted on a table or against a wall, and the body heats the cabin directly (or at least there is no duct work). These would be like a Dickenson or Sig style. Fuel options are the most prolific here, diesel, kerosene, stove oil, wood. It also seems like most of these do not require any electricity, which on a simple sailing vessel is always a bonus. The problem I see with these is the space they will consume in the cabin/living space. Realistically, the only place I can imagine one of these living in my boat is where the table is mounted on the wall. This means no table, though, and effectively the loss of a berth.

I am assuming that people have tackled this problem dozens of times over before me, so I'm hoping I could get some first hand information about how it has been done and if you are happy with the results.

Cheers,
-AT
1979 CD27 Cailín

[Jim Walsh]

Were I in your shoes I’d leave the cabin table in the down position with the leaf folded down. Your port settee and your starboard settee are both still usable and with the leaf down you don’t restrict movement fore and aft. This leaves your port bulkhead free to mount a cabin heater of your choice.
If seasonal use only is anticipated most stoves are relatively easy to remove and store till needed in the fall and you would gain the use of the bulkhead to store your cabin table in the upright position.

[atcowboy]

Were I in your shoes I’d leave the cabin table in the down position with the leaf folded down. Your port settee and your starboard settee are both still usable and with the leaf down you don’t restrict movement fore and aft. This leaves your port bulkhead free to mount a cabin heater of your choice.
If seasonal use only is anticipated most stoves are relatively easy to remove and store till needed in the fall and you would gain the use of the bulkhead to store your cabin table in the upright position.

Hi Jim,
If I understand your second paragraph correctly, the Wallas stove is definitely a permanent installation. It requires an exhaust for the diesel burners just like other diesel heater applications.

Does Orion have a wall mounted heater of some sort?

Thanks,
AT

[Jim Walsh]

Were I in your shoes I’d leave the cabin table in the down position with the leaf folded down. Your port settee and your starboard settee are both still usable and with the leaf down you don’t restrict movement fore and aft. This leaves your port bulkhead free to mount a cabin heater of your choice.
If seasonal use only is anticipated most stoves are relatively easy to remove and store till needed in the fall and you would gain the use of the bulkhead to store your cabin table in the upright position.

Hi Jim,
If I understand your second paragraph correctly, the Wallas stove is definitely a permanent installation. It requires an exhaust for the diesel burners just like other diesel heater applications.

Does Orion have a wall mounted heater of some sort?

Thanks,
AT

I was not referring to the Wallas stove which takes the place of your cabin cooktop and has the bonus of providing heat. I was recommending that you could mount a bulkhead mounted cabin heater of your choice.
Orion does not have a cabin heater.

[BernieA]

I installed a Wallas Nordic DT stove/heater in my CD28 last spring. We had an Origo 6000 stove prior to that. I opted to use a separate fuel tank rather than cut into the existing fuel tank. The tank holds 10 Liters, or a bit over 10 quarts. when cooking or heating , it uses about 6 ounces per hour and heats the cabin very nicely. Additionally, it dehumidifies the cabin. When in heater mode, it is thermostatically controlled, so its possible to set the temperature and it stays at that temperature without needing to adjust anything. Note that on initial startup, it draws about 8 amps at 12.7 volts for about 3 minutes to heat the glow plug. Once it fires up, the current draw drops to about 1 amp.
When looking to replace the alcohol stove, I would have gone with propane, but my crew (wife) is scared of having propane in the interior of the boat. The Wallas Nordic DT cost about $3000, so if cost is an issue, you might not want to go there, but my crew is happy. Here are some pictures I can add some more if you are interested.

[atcowboy]

I installed a Wallas Nordic DT stove/heater in my CD28 last spring. We had an Origo 6000 stove prior to that. I opted to use a separate fuel tank rather than cut into the existing fuel tank. The tank holds 10 Liters, or a bit over 10 quarts. when cooking or heating , it uses about 6 ounces per hour and heats the cabin very nicely. Additionally, it dehumidifies the cabin. When in heater mode, it is thermostatically controlled, so its possible to set the temperature and it stays at that temperature without needing to adjust anything. Note that on initial startup, it draws about 8 amps at 12.7 volts for about 3 minutes to heat the glow plug. Once it fires up, the current draw drops to about 1 amp.
When looking to replace the alcohol stove, I would have gone with propane, but my crew (wife) is scared of having propane in the interior of the boat. The Wallas Nordic DT cost about $3000, so if cost is an issue, you might not want to go there, but my crew is happy. Here are some pictures I can add some more if you are interested.

I've only been on one CD28 in my life, a boat I went to look at to buy. But your cabin layout is incongruent with my memory of that boat - and what I see on sailboatdata.com also. It looks like you have a starboard side galley? Or at least stove?

How do you like the unit for every day use? I've read on van life pages that the stove is kind of slow to heat up. I suppose I haven't considered the fact that it will also require power when in "stove mode" making it far more complicated than the alcohol stove it came with (not that I love that stove either, it's loud and makes my eyes burn, running it frequently sets off the smoke alarm if the boat is closed up). Is it loud when running in either mode?

Can you overview the tubing you have going on there? It looks like your exhaust comes out the bottom of the stove, makes a 180* bend up, and then snakes along the cabin top to exit there?

The cost is definitely a concern for me. My mother actually found these stoves (as I was texting her pictures of my deck covered with sleet and hail) and we both swear we remember seeing the stove being sold for $800-$900 by Scan Marine. I had to ask her what she remembered, because I thought I was going crazy when I saw what they are asking now! I don't know if it was some amazing sale, or maybe a pricing error, but I really wish I'd just bought the stove then lol.

- AT

[John Stone]

I've been thinking of getting a cabin heater for my CD27 and have been casually looking since I pulled my boat in early November.

In that casual research, what I discovered is there are A LOT of different options for cabin heaters. Enough that I feel overwhelmed.

One system that had caught my eye was the Wallas stove, a diesel stove that can be equipped with a flip-lid that vents the stovetop heat with a small fan. Closing the stop top (like a laptop) converts it to heater mode, where a thermostat controls the temperature output of the stove. It seems like a really great solution for the very small interior space of a 27', and also removes the open-flame hazard of the alcohol stove there currently. Unfortunately, it seems like the price for these has not only gone up but the American distributor seems to be out of stock.

The other heaters I have found have been what I'll term "torpedo" heaters that get hidden somewhere in the boat, with exhaust and heated air vented through hoses. These are also prolific in the van life scene, with some China knock-offs at $140. Most seem to be diesel, but there must be propane flavors also. The problem I see with these is the space taken away from storage, as well as routing the exhaust. I've read that the cabin heat from these can be very hot (200*F) so even the wanted hot air seems like it would take nearly as much care as the exhaust.

The last type of heater I've seen are I guess what I'll call "stoves". Something that gets mounted on a table or against a wall, and the body heats the cabin directly (or at least there is no duct work). These would be like a Dickenson or Sig style. Fuel options are the most prolific here, diesel, kerosene, stove oil, wood. It also seems like most of these do not require any electricity, which on a simple sailing vessel is always a bonus. The problem I see with these is the space they will consume in the cabin/living space. Realistically, the only place I can imagine one of these living in my boat is where the table is mounted on the wall. This means no table, though, and effectively the loss of a berth.

I am assuming that people have tackled this problem dozens of times over before me, so I'm hoping I could get some first hand information about how it has been done and if you are happy with the results.

Cheers,
-AT
1979 CD27 Cailín

AT
No one way to add heat to your boat. But, you have to figure out what your priorities are, what your goals are, and what compromises you are willing to make to get what you want.

My recommendation to those, like me, who want a bullet prove reliable boat is to keep your boat as simple and uncomplicated as possible. Also make sure you can repair every system you install. Heaters take up space but some less than others.

Here are two links. The first is from our rebuild website detailing our design and installation of a Refleks heater. It’s been a great heater for us. Would not change a thing.

http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... dvane.html


Second is a little blurb I wrote about it on our sailing website.

https://farreachvoyages.net/2017/12/16/ ... xs-heater/

Let me know if you have questions.

[fmueller]

I put a Webasto 2000 STC in my 27.

https://www.webasto-comfort.com/int/pro ... 000-stc-1/

Its small - about the size of a shoebox.

It's in my starboard locker on the shelf where my batteries used to be; before I moved them below my cabin sole. Exhaust goes out a small cleaver fitting high on the transom. This is no more problematic than a flue on your coach roof for a stove IMHO. Hot cabin air is delivered via 3" hose which runs unseen under my starboard settee and exits thru an unobtrusive round outlet mounted to the settee face at the bow end of the settee. The delivered hot air is no hotter than hot air typical in autos ... as an example ... not dangerous. Unit delivers 3000-7000 BTU. Enough to lift the cabin about 25 degrees above ambient. It draws diesel from my engine tank with a dedicated pump (also on that shelf) and supplied 1/4" fuel line which runs to a secondary tap on the tank - about a gallon a day.

I looked at several diesel stoves and just didn't think there was really room in my 27 for one. Did not want propane on the boat. Negatives for the Webasto - there is some fan noise, and it requires 1.5-3 amps 12v.

[atcowboy]

I've been thinking of getting a cabin heater for my CD27 and have been casually looking since I pulled my boat in early November.

In that casual research, what I discovered is there are A LOT of different options for cabin heaters. Enough that I feel overwhelmed.

One system that had caught my eye was the Wallas stove, a diesel stove that can be equipped with a flip-lid that vents the stovetop heat with a small fan. Closing the stop top (like a laptop) converts it to heater mode, where a thermostat controls the temperature output of the stove. It seems like a really great solution for the very small interior space of a 27', and also removes the open-flame hazard of the alcohol stove there currently. Unfortunately, it seems like the price for these has not only gone up but the American distributor seems to be out of stock.

The other heaters I have found have been what I'll term "torpedo" heaters that get hidden somewhere in the boat, with exhaust and heated air vented through hoses. These are also prolific in the van life scene, with some China knock-offs at $140. Most seem to be diesel, but there must be propane flavors also. The problem I see with these is the space taken away from storage, as well as routing the exhaust. I've read that the cabin heat from these can be very hot (200*F) so even the wanted hot air seems like it would take nearly as much care as the exhaust.

The last type of heater I've seen are I guess what I'll call "stoves". Something that gets mounted on a table or against a wall, and the body heats the cabin directly (or at least there is no duct work). These would be like a Dickenson or Sig style. Fuel options are the most prolific here, diesel, kerosene, stove oil, wood. It also seems like most of these do not require any electricity, which on a simple sailing vessel is always a bonus. The problem I see with these is the space they will consume in the cabin/living space. Realistically, the only place I can imagine one of these living in my boat is where the table is mounted on the wall. This means no table, though, and effectively the loss of a berth.

I am assuming that people have tackled this problem dozens of times over before me, so I'm hoping I could get some first hand information about how it has been done and if you are happy with the results.

Cheers,
-AT
1979 CD27 Cailín

AT
No one way to add heat to your boat. But, you have to figure out what your priorities are, what your goals are, and what compromises you are willing to make to get what you want.

My recommendation to those, like me, who want a bullet prove reliable boat is to keep your boat as simple and uncomplicated as possible. Also make sure you can repair every system you install. Heaters take up space but some less than others.

Here are two links. The first is from our rebuild website detailing our design and installation of a Refleks heater. It’s been a great heater for us. Would not change a thing.

http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... dvane.html


Second is a little blurb I wrote about it on our sailing website.

https://farreachvoyages.net/2017/12/16/ ... xs-heater/

Let me know if you have questions.

Well, I thought it might be wise to try to learn from how other CD owners (especially CD27 flavored) might have fixed a problem before me. If I had a corner I wasn't really using, I don't think It would be a debate - I'd put a heater like the one you have in and be done with it. No electricity, simple plumbing, and the exhaust is very unlikely to get stuffed by a wave.

I feel the need to let you know that hours and hours of reading your website is one of the reasons why I ended up with Cailín Your boat is truly beautiful.

- AT

[atcowboy]

I put a Webasto 2000 STC in my 27.

https://www.webasto-comfort.com/int/pro ... 000-stc-1/

Its small - about the size of a shoebox.

It's in my starboard locker on the shelf where my batteries used to be; before I moved them below my cabin sole. Exhaust goes out a small cleaver fitting high on the transom. This is no more problematic than a flue on your coach roof for a stove IMHO. Hot cabin air is delivered via 3" hose which runs unseen under my starboard settee and exits thru an unobtrusive round outlet mounted to the settee face at the bow end of the settee. The delivered hot air is no hotter than hot air typical in autos ... as an example ... not dangerous. Unit delivers 3000-7000 BTU. Enough to lift the cabin about 25 degrees above ambient. It draws diesel from my engine tank with a dedicated pump (also on that shelf) and supplied 1/4" fuel line which runs to a secondary tap on the tank - about a gallon a day.

I looked at several diesel stoves and just didn't think there was really room in my 27 for one. Did not want propane on the boat. Negatives for the Webasto - there is some fan noise, and it requires 1.5-3 amps 12v.

How does that size heater keep up with the 27? Are you able to heat the whole boat pretty evenly?

How did you fit batteries under the cabin sole? Did you switch to Lithium batteries? I can only imagine one lead based battery going in there...

Cailín lives in Mount Hope Bay. Maybe we should get the CD27's together, they may have been litter mates.

- AT

[fmueller]

Two Gp 27 AGMs fit under the cabin sole. We made a custom tray. You would not want to put flooded batteries there. You need to cut a second hatch. There is adequate space.

Link to pix from my refit a few years ago. Go to #30-33. Then scroll to #46.

Pm me if you’d like to see Jerezana. She’s at RIYC. You me and Walter Hobbs should do a 27 rendezvous over in Potter Cove next season. There are at least three other 27s I know of on Narragansett.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8xeqtsrj4log ... hat0a?dl=0

In 40 degree weather it makes the cabin comfortable ... in freezing temps it lifts the cabin to about 60 degrees. You’d have to go with one of the larger units to get true winter season performance. 15000 BTU ???

Cabin heat was the least essential item on my list although this winter I’ve left the boat in and I certainly am using it more.

[atcowboy]

Two Gp 27 AGMs fit under the cabin sole. We made a custom tray. You would not want to put flooded batteries there. You need to cut a second hatch. There is adequate space.

Link to pix from my refit a few years ago. Go to #30-33. Then scroll to #46.

Pm me if you’d like to see Jerezana. She’s at RIYC. You me and Walter Hobbs should do a 27 rendezvous over in Potter Cove next season. There are at least three other 27s I know of on Narragansett.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8xeqtsrj4log ... hat0a?dl=0

In 40 degree weather it makes the cabin comfortable ... in freezing temps it lifts the cabin to about 60 degrees. You’d have to go with one of the larger units to get true winter season performance. 15000 BTU ???

Cabin heat was the least essential item on my list although this winter I’ve left the boat in and I certainly am using it more.

I see what you did there (with the batteries). I'm kind of eyeing that space for excessive bilge pumps and possibly even ducting to the front of the boat for a parking (torpedo) heater. The storage space in the starboard settee is already so miniscule, I'd hate to loose any of it to ducting....

Your help and the help of many others has me heavily leaning towards a 5kW parking heater for this boat.

Now as to the meetup, which Potter cove? I have never dropped anchor at the northern one, and only really peeped the southern one with the binoculars. But I would love to meet some other CD owners, 27 or otherwise. This will be my second season - I'd like to try to sail with other people and expand my skill and knowledge through the wisdom (or folly lol) of others.

- AT

[BernieA]

How do you like the unit for every day use? I've read on van life pages that the stove is kind of slow to heat up. I suppose I haven't considered the fact that it will also require power when in "stove mode" making it far more complicated than the alcohol stove it came with (not that I love that stove either, it's loud and makes my eyes burn, running it frequently sets off the smoke alarm if the boat is closed up). Is it loud when running in either mode?

Can you overview the tubing you have going on there? It looks like your exhaust comes out the bottom of the stove, makes a 180* bend up, and then snakes along the cabin top to exit there?

The stove is slow to heat up, it takes about 8 minutes before its ready to cook on. The first thing we do to begin cooking it start the stove, then prep everything to cook. Its usually hot by the time we are ready to heat food. When we've left it on as a cabin heater overnight, it is ready to cook on immediately, so it works very well for us.

My galley is non-standard. Originally, there was only the icebox on the starboard side, sink was above the engine and to starboard of the steps. Stove was on the port side. the previous owner shortened the starboard berth and installed the alcohol stove between the berth and icebox. He put a double sink on the port side where the stove had been. The Wallas stove takes up about the same space as any 2 burner cooktop. the exhaust comes out below the stove, then bends around and heads to the exit port. I cut a hole in the side of the doghouse and exited exhaust there. You can exit along the side of the hull or out the transom. I chose the doghouse to make sure seawater won't have a chance to backflow into the exhaust tube.

If you mother saw a Wallas stove for $8-900, it probably wasn't the stove/heater. More likely it was a stove only. They are less complex, but we wanted both stove and heater and this unit made sense to me. We only sail in the Salish Sea, which is Puget Sound, the San Juan Islands, and Canadian Gulf Islands to the north end of Vancouver Island. If we planned to go offshore in the North Pacific, I'm not sure I would have installed this unit.

[Tom Keevil]

A complaint I have heard from Wallas owners is that the raised top completely blocks access to storage spaces behind it. This is a problem if that is where you keep spices, utensils, etc.

The Webasto type heaters produce a lot of heat, but they do require maintenance and repair (generally when it’s cold). The biggest problem might be with your marina neighbors, as they produce a lot of external noise.

You also need to carefully think about why you want a heater. Is this to take the chill off on a fall morning, or to spend a week cruising in the winter? Those produce very different answers.

We have a variety of heat sources for different circumstances, but our go to heater is a Dickinson wood stove, which we think is great.

[fmueller]

Tom ...

About the Webasto - disagree about external noise ... it's just not very loud externally, at least as installed on my boat ... far less than a generator or an idling engine - about like hearing a neighbors bilge pump go on actually ... I hear it more inside the cabin, than I'd like, or expected ... but not drastically.

Also, for example, on a 45ish degree day it will run full out for 10 minutes, but once it gets the cabin up to lets say 60-65 degrees (if thats where I've set it), it spins down and becomes almost inaudible, occasionally spinning up again, but never quite as hard as initially. The power consumption when it first goes on is 6-7 amps, I think because there is a glow plug on startup ... but that turns off and the fan draws not much more than 2 amps and sometimes just barely an amp. When it's ramped down it's hard to tell its on from outside the boat, again, my boat. Wind and general marina noise is louder. But also I've got the smallest one they make.

I guess I'll find out about maintenance. So far haven't touched it. But still low hours - maybe 100 if that ... the manual actually cautions against disuse - encourages lighting it up in the summer and running it for at least an hour just to move fresh fuel through the lines/pump and burn carbon out of the chamber. Apparently carbon buildup it the problem and can be avoided by running the unit for at least a complete cycle as I've described.

edit: did some reading last night ... Webasto does not call for any regular service ... there is no a service interval and no service routine ... the fan is use rated at 50,000 hours ...