25 vs 27

[fritz3000g]

I'm learning more about the Cape Dory boats for purchase in a couple of years. From what I can tell, the 25D or 27 are what I'm looking for, being the largest street-legal cruisers.

Other than bathroom and berth placement, galley layout, and size/weight, they look basically identical. They were even produced during the same spans of years. Based on the Registry there were similar quantities produced.

It appears that there are significantly more 27s online, and for cheaper than 25Ds. This surprises me given that it's more boat.

Is there any other difference that I'm not seeing - particularly a reason that more 27s would be for sale, and for cheaper?

[ghockaday]

When you say "street Legal" do you mean you want a trailer sailer or you are going to tow it once. The 27 at 8.5 feet wide and 7500 pounds adding in the width of the trailer and over a ton heaver than the 25. I don't think I'd want to tow it. I would guess the 25 is higher because it is more towable for a large tow vehicle. Just a guess. Dennis

cape dory 27.jpg

[fritz3000g]

When you say "street Legal" do you mean you want a trailer sailer or you are going to tow it once.

Something in-between perhaps. I suspect I'd put it in the water maybe 5 times a year in different locations for long trips.

From my perspective, towing a 7500 lb trailer vs. a 10,000 lb trailer isn't that different. You'd need a full sized truck either way, just a different gear ratio for that truck. That said, it's possible you're right, that others perceive this difference as significant. I also noticed that the ceiling height is 1" higher on the 25D. That would actually make the 27 borderline standing headroom for me, while I could definitely stand in a 25D.

I'm not sure why any of these issues would make 27s more available on the market though. That I'm very curious about.

[fmueller]

I own a 27 but the cabin layout of the 25d makes more sense to me for a small boat ... you actually have more privacy while using the head which is up forward where the v-berth is, typically, in small boats. I did not know about that when I bought Jerezana - well, in fact, that was one of many details about Cape Dory's I did not know about. I was basically just trying to buy the best boat I could find in a certain price range (less than $15,000) and she was in very good shape and I thought she looked lovely ... In hindsight I wish I had bought a cutter rigged 28 with a tiller ... such is life ... but I had started out looking at smaller boats and the 28s just seemed beyond me at the time.

In your case I think I'd hold out for a 25d ... even that boat seems a little large to be trailering regularly.

[wjgray3]

I bought a CD27. In fact, it is the very one in the picture above. I bought the trailer too. This is a picture of "Sequel", a 1977 CD27, hull #18.
As far as standing headroom, I am six foot tall, and in the salon, I can stand up straight in most places, but I'll hit my head on the trim around the companionway entrance.
I had the boat towed more than 1300 miles, from Erie, PA, to Texas earlier this year. The person who towed it said it handled very well, no issues. He had a Ram 3500 dually. Drove it in two days with two people.
I also considered the 25D, but the extra two feet of length in the 27 made for just a bit more elbow room, and permitted the v-berth to actually allow me to just stretch out (with no spare room). The two salon berths are not long enough for me to do the same in the 27. I don't know about the 25D.
The 27 cockpit is big enough for more than four, but not when underway comfortably. I would say one or two is perfect, three is doable, four is marginal, and more than that is reckless. I don't know about the 25D cockpit room.
This boat is tiller steered and was in pretty good shape. The few issues identified by the surveyor were rectified in the first week of ownership. The surveyor was worth the money. He saved me more in acquisition cost than he charged me.
As has been noted on this forum many times, the 25 is a different boat than a 25D.
Good luck.
Bill

[fritz3000g]

While it's always dangerous to draw conclusions from a few sample points, if I were to assume that your responses were representative, I could formulate a case why 27s are less likely to be kept than 25Ds. Here are the three owner profiles I'm hearing.

1. The 27 is a little too big to trailer. I didn't realize the 27 would feel so big. I kind-of wish I had something just a little smaller so I could trailer.
2. The 27 is a little too small for my needs. I don't trailer, and I didn't realize the small boat feel would bother me in the end. The 27 is heavy, but it still has the design of a smaller boat (i.e. lack of privacy) which I don't like.
3. I don't trailer much, but I do sometimes. Being able to trailer is useful to me and I'm willing to sacrifice the amenities of a larger boat to keep that ability.

Seen from this angle, the 27 could be considered to be a transitional boat from a small, trailerable boat to a boat that feels larger. Except for the odd person who is willing to give up on the big boat benefits because they value occasionally trailering so highly (and is willing to deal with the hassle of trailering the beast), people wouldn't keep them very long.

Does this seem like a likely explanation for the abundance of available 27s?

well, in fact, that was one of many details about Cape Dory's I did not know about

This sounds ominous. What else did you not know about CDs?

Tiller steering I could see as something you wouldn't know the value of till you'd sailed without one. Why do you want the cutter rig?

I am six foot tall, and in the salon, I can stand up straight in most places

This is really great feedback. I'd read that the headroom was 5'10" which was a downside for me. I'm just over 5'10" and so it sounds like I'll be fine.

The 27 cockpit is big enough for more than four

This was also a great selling point for me. I often have guests, want to trailer, and also want to hit the open water. It's a lot to ask of a boat.

[fmueller]

About sailing with guests: none of the tillered small Cape Dory cockpits are particularly great for more than two quite honestly. If you are expecting guests often (3-4 or more) I'd look for something else. The end of the tiller is well forward the midpoint of the cockpit in the 27. They are great for single handing, which I knew would be me before I bought my 27. Sitting in the cockpit that first day I found her I could see immediately how nearly perfect she is for a solo sailor, and mostly day-sailor, who might occasionally overnight or take off for a few days.

These boats are (IMHO) of another era. The idea of 4 going cruising in a CD 27 is just a little nuts. (She has 4 births after all). But OEM: no hot water, no shower, a perfunctory galley, limited storage, poorly insulated "ice chest", little privacy for the head, 12 gallon holding tank, and limited fresh water with no deck fill. My wife Karen calls it "car camping in a boat".

I'd be the first to admit I didn't know much of this clearly when I bought her ... but you know the grass is always greener, and I've always just made the best of it with what is at hand- despite my own lack of foresight or planning ... that's what I've done with little Jerezana. Stood her up nicely and rolled with her shortcomings (and mine).

As she is now, she's "yar" to use an old nautical term, or as the Brits say "well sorted", or as we say "well found" ... Other boats often feel hollow by comparison, and I don't mean just physically. She sails better than her PHRF rating would suggest, ignores lobster pots, shrugs off occasional groundings ( ), and looks great doing it ... I'm still chuckling about the time Jim Walsh told me I should add wheels to my keel.

cheers

[ghockaday]

When you say "street Legal" do you mean you want a trailer sailer or you are going to tow it once.

Something in-between perhaps. I suspect I'd put it in the water maybe 5 times a year in different locations for long trips.

From my perspective, towing a 7500 lb trailer vs. a 10,000 lb trailer isn't that different. You'd need a full sized truck either way, just a different gear ratio for that truck. That said, it's possible you're right, that others perceive this difference as significant. I also noticed that the ceiling height is 1" higher on the 25D. That would actually make the 27 borderline standing headroom for me, while I could definitely stand in a 25D.

I'm not sure why any of these issues would make 27s more available on the market though. That I'm very curious about.

Not just any full size truck will pull this boat. The tow rating on pick-ups in over rated. I have a full size gmc, With a short trailer and 3 calves it handles poorly. 3/4 ton truck may be ok but a 1 ton dual wheels would be perfect. Less sway and more braking power.

That being said, I did pull a 24 foot Albemarle with a Tahoe with a 350 engine, at 6000 pounds it was doable but stopping had to be planned, you hope.

[Carl Thunberg]

Five long trips a year in different locations? That would be awesome! Good luck with your search. I'm envious.

[fritz3000g]

Not just any full size truck will pull this boat.

You make a good point. It's true that 7500->10000 might mean the difference between a half-ton and a 3/4 ton, and that a 1-ton would feel more comfortable. I've gotten so used to pulling trailers with overloaded vehicles that just having one rated for the load (or even with trailer brakes) feels like heaven.

If you are expecting guests often (3-4 or more) I'd look for something else.

The kind off bringing-of-guests that I do is more for day-sailing or overnight in calm-to-moderate conditions. Most of those guests will be people who love car camping. Some of them will be kids.

One thing I like about the layout in the 27 is that guests can sit aft of the tiller or on the transom, out of the way of the helmsman who can reach the lines. Currently I have an over-the-transom rudder and I'm always asking people to pull things ("no, not that rope...") and then reaching over them to do it myself.

You make a good point about privacy and the shower. The center-cockpit boats handle those issues better than the CDs IMO, though there are downsides to those too. That's a problem I'll have to solve somehow.

that's what I've done with little Jerezana. Stood her up nicely and rolled with her shortcomings (and mine).

Awesome! That's my expectation - many hours of work and mods till she's all set. Probably for the best as I'd get bored otherwise

Do you have a shower and a private head now?

[fmueller]

Nope ... I just took a well kept boat and fixed her up even more - but very little modification.

soup to nuts:

New engine/tank/shaft/feathering prop, exhaust. Had to enlarge the rudder aperture a little. Ice chest is now a fridge. All new thru hulls and seacocks, Groco. Decks re-glassed to eliminate gelcoat "crazing". New 12 v. panel/LED lights/added shore power and charger_inverter/new AGM batteries moved to beneath the cabin sole. Webasto diesel heater. Rebuilt the head and sanitary plumbing. Modest but complete B&G electronics and radio. New compass. New anchors (Rocna, Fortress). Standing rigging/lifelines/running rigging. Removed and re-bedded all fittings Awlgrip deck and hull. Stripped and varnished all exterior teak (2017). PO had already done barrier coat so just sanding and new bottom paint initially. Two jibs - 115% North, and 100% Quantum. Even rebuilt the lightening suppression system with 6 guage stranded copper.

Still need a boomvang, cunningham, thinking about a Pelagic tiller pilot. When the AGMs go I'll switch to lithium. Installing a Victronics battery monitor this winter. Will do a new mainsail someday with deeper reefs.

My son Toby has a boat building company Carbon Ocean Yachts in Bristol - I had lots of professional help.

[csoule13]

Another 27 owner chiming in. Someone on here described the 27 as the biggest of Cape Dory's small boats, while the 28 is the smallest of the big boats. Plenty of videos on YouTube on the 25D, including one of our members doing a modestly thorough refit.

I'm 6' if I stand up and as mentioned, minus clipping the trim by the companionway and going to/from the v berth, it hasn't been an issue. The starboard sette is 72 or 74 inches long, and I find it a delightful spot for napping.

I'd agree that the boat is car camping, but not uncomfortable car camping. I'd have no problem with myself and two guests for a three day weekend, as long as not everyone is on the taller/larger size. For sailing, I've had myself, my Dad(5' 8") and my cousin (5'5") out for a sail and it was a non-issue. A cockpit full of novices who aren't aware of how to safely keep their important parts out of the way of lines and the boom, though, would be a little different.

The 25D might also fetch a higher price, and have fewer on the market because it is a bit of a unicorn. The two full berths in the salon is really nice as is the headroom. An inboard diesel on a boat that size is appealing.

At the end of the day, what type of sailing do you plan on doing most of the time, and get the most boat for the least money to do that. The 27 accomplishes that for me, but I also really get where Fred is coming from that you can hit certain limitations in a hurry.

Happy hunting,
Chris

[Dick Kobayashi]

I know nothing about trailers or towing. But observe that wives and girl friends love the privacy and amenities of the fully enclosed forward head compartment. This I think accounts for some of the price difference.

It is not clear to me where you will be trailer sailing the number of trips per year you propose is a lot for most of us.

I suggest consider first where and how (day sail or cruise), then think about boat, then trailer system.

Big Double Axle trailers and the vehicles to tow them are not cheap (unless you own the vehicle anyway).

Sometimes less is more.

[fmueller]

Chris,

You put the discussion nicely into good context. Agree with everything you say. My son a friend and myself were out just a few days ago. We had a great 6 hour sail. But these fellas are boaties and know how And where to move to and how to be “small” when tacking and so forth.

I have no idea if I’d miss the sailing dynamics of the 27 compared to a 25d. I’ve never been on one under sail. I have been on a 25 (no “d”) and it’s just a smaller rig altogether. Was happy to get back on my boat. But people love them for sure. I’m just too tall for one. In fact I’m really a little too tall for my boat but you just kind of crab about on boats anyway, especially underway, so it’s not a big problem for me.

I’ve had 5 onboard just once ... but that was just to motor up to Providence on the 4th a few years ago and get right under the fireworks. It’s was great. There’s also a 27 moored up jus north of me at Edgewood YC and that boat has gone buy me a few times loaded with kids and “as many as can fit” in the cockpit.

[fritz3000g]

Nope ... I just took a well kept boat and fixed her up even more - but very little modification.

Looking at your list, I shudder to think what you'd call a modification

The two full berths in the salon is really nice as is the headroom.

Are you saying that the salon berths in the 25D are larger than those in the 27?

Someone on here described the 27 as the biggest of Cape Dory's small boats, while the 28 is the smallest of the big boats.

This makes a lot of sense. It does seem to occupy a potentially awkward space in the hierarchy.

Big Double Axle trailers and the vehicles to tow them are not cheap (unless you own the vehicle anyway). Sometimes less is more.

Honestly, that's probably what it'll come down to for me. Cost of boat+vehicle+trailer+mods.

The two boats seem about equal in their utility to me at this point. 25D would be easier to tow and launch. 27 would be more comfortable on passage and for daytime guests. I'll try to sail in one of each if possible, and if I still feel like they're a wash I'll go by cost.

There’s also a 27 moored up jus north of me at Edgewood YC and that boat has gone buy me a few times loaded with kids and “as many as can fit” in the cockpit.

Yeah that can be fun. I've sailed my Mac 25 with 12 on board before in some wind. You get some water in the bilge through the swing keel upwind but not too much for the pump. People sit everywhere. They have to deal with a rudder in their face sometimes and everyone has to pull lines.