What size (as a percent of foretriangle) is your working jib

[mkaplan]

I ordered a 100% hank-on jib but the sailmaker sent me a 110% anyway. We discussed it and he offered to cut it down for free after I tried the 110.

Well, I've tried it for a few months and I still think I want a 100% or even a 90% non-overlapping jib. What size do you use?

I don't need the working jib upwind in less than 10 or downwind in less than 12-15. I want the working jib for 15 to 25 upwind, with single or double reefed main. Is that reasonable?

With the 110, above 20 knots, even with a double reefed main, the boat feels overpowered. If I lower the jib and sail with reefed main only it feels very comfortable which leads me to think the jib is too big for those conditions.

Also, I'm also thinking of adding a reef point to the jib with a 2nd clew but not a new tack. After reefing, it would have the shape of a yankee. I'm hoping I could use this with a double or triple reefed main to sail upwind in 30 knots. I have a Cape Dory 26. Has anyone done this?

[John Stone]

I ordered a 100% hank-on jib but the sailmaker sent me a 110% anyway. We discussed it and he offered to cut it down for free after I tried the 110.

Well, I've tried it for a few months and I still think I want a 100% or even a 90% non-overlapping jib. What size do you use?

I don't need the working jib upwind in less than 10 or downwind in less than 12-15. I want the working jib for 15 to 25 upwind, with single or double reefed main. Is that reasonable?

With the 110, above 20 knots, even with a double reefed main, the boat feels overpowered. If I lower the jib and sail with reefed main only it feels very comfortable which leads me to think the jib is too big for those conditions.

Also, I'm also thinking of adding a reef point to the jib with a 2nd clew but not a new tack. After reefing, it would have the shape of a yankee. I'm hoping I could use this with a double or triple reefed main to sail upwind in 30 knots. I have a Cape Dory 26. Has anyone done this?

If you don’t have a furler then a reefing jib is the way to go. That’s what I use. Though on my boat it’s what’s called a bonneted jib meaning the bottom portion zips off. That’s because on a sail as big as mine a reefed jib catches a lot of water in the bunt when sailing offshore. But, in boats under 30’ all you need is a set of reef points.

I have a taller rig and a longer bowsprit so my 100 percent jib is about a 130-140 or so on stock CD 36. When it’s configured as a smaller working jib it’s about the same as a 100 percent jib on a stock boat.

I recommend you have the sail maker set up the reef points so your sheet leads don’t change. I don’t see the value in a yankee unless perhaps you are sailing all the time with a stays’l. In fact you can put two reef points in the jib. I’d keep that 110. Use it for lighter air then reef to a 90 percent or so. A good sailmaker will set it up to work with the reef points in your main so you should sketch the main out so he can build you a sail plan because you want the main and jib, reefed or not, to work in concert to help you attain a balanced helm.

[kerrydeare]

I ordered a 100% hank-on jib but the sailmaker sent me a 110% ... I still think I want a 100% or even a 90% non-overlapping jib ... With the 110, above 20 knots, even with a double reefed main, the boat feels overpowered ... I'm also thinking of adding a reef point to the jib with a 2nd clew but not a new tack ... Has anyone done this?

You are one of the (lucky) few still using hanked-on sails so these questions are some of the trade-offs you will encounter. Not to worry, as there are many sound arguments on either side.

Traditionally the definition of "working jib" was a sail with the foot equal to the "J" measurement, or a "100%" jib. When furling systems advanced to the point that partially furled headsails could be carried upwind with reasonable efficiency, the old terms lost some of their meaning, and today I suspect most casual sailors carry a furling headsail of something like 130% or so. Whenever it pipes a bit they just roll it up and are soon back in harbor in any case.

The hank-on sailor is in a slightly different situation and usually has to make a choice in advance of conditions about which sail to bend on. Either way you won't go too far wrong with the sail you already have for your CD26, because you are not in any case going to go very much faster (or slower) such that it makes much difference.

The idea of fitting a reef is completely practical, but perhaps the "halfway" you suggested will not be entirely satisfactory. I used a 130% hanked-on sail with a reef for many years, so I can make a few comments. One of the first comments is that it will take a bit of doing to get things running smoothly. You will have to decide if additional fairleads will be required, if a second set of sheets makes sense, how the reef points will be tied in to avoid damage and chafe, etc. This will take time and experience and there is no way to figure it out without actually doing it on the water. In the end I think the 130 with a reef made good sense on my CD28 and would do it again. Of course many would just go ahead with a furler and avoid the whole question.

As far as cutting down the 110 to 100, that's probably not going to make much of a practical difference. However if you want to have access to a smaller sail, just fit a traditional second reef of reasonable size (perhaps cut to about 85 or 90 percent). Also don't forget to add a pendant on the foot to get the sail above the pulpit and lifelines as much as possible.

[gonesail]

110% is the old standard for working jibs. I agree with you wanting a 90% though .. much easier to handle. having a cutter rig solves a lot of problems for me.

[John Stone]

I didn’t think to mention my stays’l has two reef points. I bet it’s around the same size as the jib on your 26. My stays’l J is 13’6”. No club boom. It works very well.

Here is a picture of it double reefed headed downwind in about 35 kts. We’re about 300 nm off the coast of NC headed to the Virgin Islands Dec 2019.

[mkaplan]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm reassured that a jib with reef is practical. I just need to decide the size of the jib and the shape of the reef.

John, Thanks for the photo of your reefed staysail. That was very encouraging. It also shows a high clew that I am considering.

Maybe someday I'll convert my rig to a cutter but for now a reefed jib seems the easier route.

[John Stone]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm reassured that a jib with reef is practical. I just need to decide the size of the jib and the shape of the reef.

John, Thanks for the photo of your reefed staysail. That was very encouraging. It also shows a high clew that I am considering.

Maybe someday I'll convert my rig to a cutter but for now a reefed jib seems the easier route.

No sweat. The clue is high because: (a) it’s got a short pendant on it and (b) there are two reefs taken in. The angle of the foot increases for each reef so the leads can remain the same.

Attached picture below shows unreefed stays’l sheeted inside of jib. All plain sail, as it were. Notice how much lower the clew is relative to the above picture with two reefs in the stays’l.

[fmueller]

I had Quantum Sails in Bristol Ri make me a working jib for my Harken roller last year. It was a little over 100% and needed to be cut just slightly at first, which was a somewhat disconcerting. But it fits well enough now. It trims to the coach roof tracks. I realized a few years ago that every drawing Alberg did of the smaller CDs basically show the sail plan with a working jib (and maybe dashed lines showing a genny) But the conclusion i came to was that his idea was that a full main and working jib was the default rig for my boat. Not a 135 or 125. When I bought Jerezana all she had was a 135 on a Harken roller. I felt almost immediately over canvased in the first year in Boston harbor. A year later I had a high clewed 115 made by North in Marblehead. Great sail actually except worst of all worlds for trimming to point. Finally got “Albergs” jib last year. Obsevations; the boat is in much better control at 15 knots true/low 20s apparent, and, points at easily 5 degrees higher than any rig that trims outside the stays, and the main can Actually be trimmed boom over center if you got a traveler and there is less helm than with a big jib rig. Obviously tacking is much easier.

Add a little more wind and the first reef goes into the main and the boat is ok at 20 knots true, still points, still drives. I had the sail made without reefing aids (rope or foam in the luff) just so I could have a really clean leading edge.

We have had a really windy May on Narragansett and I’ve been out in stuff I really would have avoided a few years ago with just the larger jibs on the boat. If I had one critical observation to make it is that the margin of error in being correctly trimmed and over trimmed and choking the slot is just inched on the jib sheet and it was hard for me to feel it or see it at first . But I’m getting used to that. Also the main seems to prefer a little more twist than before where I’d drop the traveller and boom down and flatten the main with the sheet, now I can pull the traveler up to windward, center the boom and twist off the top of the main. It’s a really different thing, the power in the main is from lower down and the tiller is less heavy. Next step is to fit a proper Cunningham.

Cheers. I’ll try to post some pix soon.

Fred

Edit: yikes John 35 knots !

[mkaplan]

Thanks for your comments Fred, gonesail, kerrydeare and John.

John, I'd like to confirm how your staysail is set up. It seems you have 3 clew cringles, one in the corner of the sail and 2 for reefing. How far apart are the clew cringles?

Do you use the same tack cringle for all 3 positions or are there multiple tack cringles?

I'm hoping there is one tack cringle. This would make reefing easier and explain how the clew moves higher as you reef.

I assume you have 2 or 3 reef grommets on a line between each clew cringle and the tack cringle for tying up the bunt.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[John Stone]

Thanks for your comments Fred, gonesail, kerrydeare and John.

John, I'd like to confirm how your staysail is set up. It seems you have 3 clew cringles, one in the corner of the sail and 2 for reefing. How far apart are the clew cringles?

Do you use the same tack cringle for all 3 positions or are there multiple tack cringles?

I'm hoping there is one tack cringle. This would make reefing easier and explain how the clew moves higher as you reef.

I assume you have 2 or 3 reef grommets on a line between each clew cringle and the tack cringle for tying up the bunt.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Three tack cringles. Couple feet apart. I’ll lay the sail out and measure it and take some if I can find some time. Today or tomorrow. Other wise it will be a couple weeks. I may have a delivery job from Beaufort to Boston leaving Thursday so I’m jumping through my arse at the moment.

Let me say this though. What’s on my sail is not related to what would be on your sail. This is something for a sailmaker to do based on an established sail plan. You want everything to balance. There is no guess work involved with something like this.

The clew has to get higher as you reef or else you would have to move the sheet leads forward. IMO, you don’t want to have to do that.

MTF.

[mkaplan]

John,

Thanks for the information. I sent you an email. Good luck with your delivery. Let me know if you need crew.

Mike