Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Don't forget to snap some photos while you work on that boat project, then share them here.

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John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

John Danicic wrote:A most interesting dilemma and discussion but all in all, a simple solution is at hand.

John, install the engine. I know you want to deep down inside. Your significant other wants you to which is a plus to any decision that one can not make on ones own.

It will be a great project. You have the skills and the ability to do it right and a whole winter to accomplish it.

If I may lecture here:
You live in the age you live in. It is not the age of sail. It is the age of oil. It is the age of ever larger and more oil consuming engines that over powers most everything that moves. You have a plastic boat derived from that oil. You used modern tools and energy to rebuild her. You are not a purest by any stretch of the word. No one alive today can say they are, least of all say it on the the internet which is fast becoming the largest energy user on the planet outside heat and transportation.

This engine you propose will be small. Miniscule. It will use the barest minimum of fuel. It will remove that ugly outboard engine which you know looks completely out of place on a 36 and spoils the lines of Typhoons as well.

Once it is in, you never have to use it unless you need to. A stealthy compromise that will allow you and your significant other to still feel like you belong to the age of sail most of the time until you need to move up a few hundred years because an adverse current or wind keeps you wind bound in a, "shit hole harbor" or worse, denies you entrance to paradise.

To paraphrase my brother when I was dithering about whether or not to buy my first Typhoon.

"Install the engine”

Don’t look back, time is a wasting.
What he said!

I like it. Between you and Jim Walsh...y’all are on it, like dog gone it.

But for the record, least there be any misunderstanding...I do not want an engine. In a perfect world I would have no engine or outboard. But I realize I don’t live in a perfect world.

When you go below in the Far Reach there is no diesel smell, or head odor. The boat smells like fresh juniper and varnish and clean salt air. No dank mildew smells. After the most recent hurricane, know how much water was in the bilge...none.

Because the entire engine compartment is open to the saloon the fresh air goes right through the boat, into the former engine compartment, through the quarter berth vents into the cockpit lockers through the lazarette and out the aft cowl and mushroom vent. I have to figure out how to keep it thus.

So while you and Jim are right in many ways, it’s on me to figure out if I can do it in a way that does not compromise what I have.
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wikakaru
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by wikakaru »

John Stone wrote: ...
And there are some places I wanted to go just this year which I shied away from because good judgment demanded it. I wanted to sail into Marsh Harbor (down wind, unmarked narrow channel, following seas) on the way home this past June but not having been there before I was not confident I could get back out without high risk. So I didn’t go. I wanted to go up into Buck Island off St Croix for some world class snorkeling but the channel into the National Park designated anchorage is very narrow directly into the trades and swell and the outboard would have gotten swamped. So, I didn’t go. It annoyed me. Stuff like that.

I think about getting through some of the narrow breakwaters in Europe which I have been considering. Sailing in those unfamiliar restricted heavily trafficked waters, often singlehanding, engineless is probably more limiting than I want.

So my head says put the engine in and keep it a simple streamlined sailing centric arrangement and my heart says naaahhh. Refine the outboard bracket a little more and keep using the sculling oar when you can.
...
Great photo of you "contemplating" the boat!

I can see how cruising Europe would be an incentive to motorize, with all the man-made basins and Med-mooring required. That would be tough to do under sail, or even on a boat with an offset prop where you don't have prop wash to help you turn and pivot. You might wind up using the dinghy as a tug just to enhance maneuverability, but that's not something you could do single-handed.

I recall reading somewhere that the Pardeys were never shy about accepting tows from passing boats, and that's another possible tool to add to your bag of tricks, though it doesn't fit very well with the whole "self sufficient sailor" ideology, and adds its own set of challenges and dangers.

Looking at your questions in reverse order,

>>5. If I install the engine can I do it in a practical professional manner that is clever, thoughtful, simple, reliable, and effective.

Looking at what you have already done with Far Reach, I think there is little doubt that you would do an excellent job, far better than "professionals" would do when charged with the task. If you do your homework, as you seem to always do, I'm sure any engine installation that you do will be a marvel.

>>4. Am I prepared to do the work?

Sorry, this is one you have to answer yourself. Examine the resources of time, money, and motivation that are at your disposal.

>>3. Will it make the boat more capable or less capable?

An engine is a tool, and I always like to have the right tool to the right job. An engine will clearly make the boat more capable of maneuvering and traveling, and less capable of storing things because of the space you give up. Which of these is more important for what you want to do with the boat?

>>2. Will it support me doing things I might not otherwise do and is that a positive?

I remember when we had the engine replaced on our 35-foot steel cutter. The new engine was more reliable, had more horsepower, and was coupled with a bigger, more appropriately pitched prop. We were amazed at what we could do with the engine and we did it: one day we found ourselves motoring straight upwind against 25-35 knot winds through Muscle Ridge Channel in Maine, and still punching through the seas and making good progress. But in two days of motoring with the new engine we caught 2 lobster buoys on the prop, which disabled the engine each time. We hadn't caught 2 lobster buoys in the previous 2 years of cruising Maine, and here we had done it in two days. The second time we wound up having to short-tack up a narrow, rock-strewn channel against 35 knots of wind under triple-reefed main and staysail to a harbor big enough to anchor under sail so we could get into the water and clear the foul without getting bashed by the waves into the hull. What had changed was that we were using the motor in conditions where we couldn't see and avoid the lobster buoys, conditions we never would have attempted with our old engine. We were learning that just because you can do something (like motor dead upwind in a narrow channel in snotty conditions) doesn't mean that you should. If you add a motor to Far Reach, you will eventually adapt to the new symbiosis between your skills and the boat's capabilities.

>>1. Will adding the engine enhance my sailing experience or detract from it? If so, how?

I think you have already realized that an engine will both enhance and detract from your sailing experiences. It will clearly increase the number and variety of places you can go, and the ease with which you can get to the same places you already go. The flip side is that, (for you, at least, though this is probably not true of most people) it will also detract from the sense of satisfaction that you derive from doing things without an engine.

This is the crux of the matter, and is probably why you are having such a tough time deciding what to do, because it boils down to one very hard-to-answer question: Why do you sail?

Many people sail as a means to take them places they couldn't otherwise travel to. For these people it is all about the destination rather than the journey, and for such people a question like "should I have an engine" is a no-brainer. An engine gets you to more places than you get to under sail alone, or makes getting to the same places easier than under sail alone.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, there are those for whom sailing is the whole reason they do it. These people will gladly circle the globe non-stop under sail without seeing a single port along the way. For these people an engine is, at best, a way to generate electricity along the way, and at worst, a bunch of extra weight to carry around. As Robert Frost once said about writing poetry without rhyme, it's like playing tennis without a net. For those who sail for sport, using an engine is cheating, plain and simple.

Those are the extremes, and obviously most of us are somewhere in the middle. So where do you fall on the spectrum? If you can answer that, then I think you will have your answer.

One final thought: So many people buy and equip their boat based on what they want to do someday rather than what their most immediate use is. I think this is a mistake. My suggestion is to think about what your likely use of the boat will be in the next 1-2 years and do what is appropriate for that use alone. If you plan on crossing the Atlantic to Europe next year and you want to do the French canals, or tie up in the little harbors of the Med, you may very well want an engine; if you want to cruise Maine and return to NC, and Europe is several years down the pike, perhaps you want to wait a bit and revisit installing the engine at a later date.

Smooth sailing,

Jim
John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

Hard to argue with anything there.

When the situation allows for it, I spend a lot of time thinking before I make decisions with big implications. Otherwise, it’s kind of like impulse shopping. A quick ill conceived decision is bound to miss the mark and lead to regrets.

I’ve made a decision...but I want a couple days to think about it. Just to be sure. I’ll write more on it in a few days.
fmueller
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by fmueller »

Hey John ... what's wrong with the clever outboard rig you have now ... fuel consumption ? Not quite enough power ? Eyesore ? But is IS a motor so aren't you already on the dark side.

About the ethos of diesel motors in sailboats ... some of us LIKE these little mechanical beasts esthetically, as well as fussing about with them, especially if you are lucky enough to have one in good working order ... there is something essentially pleasing about a displacement hull with just the right engine and prop to move her along at hull speed and be very efficient and very reliable - then add the fact that you are the one keeping it that way by applying mechanical skills and the regularity of proper care. It's not unlike the care and effort you apply to the boat itself. For me, in fact it all becomes one and the same. This little world of a boat that gives access the the vast water.

So I'm betting if you jump the shark you might find yourself enjoying being an occasional grease monkey in the little red engine club.

Fred

by the way - I toured with Suzanne in the 80s - across the States twice and to Europe once. I was a rock and roll sound guy. Engineer.

Have you listened to "Small Blue Thing" ??

Another comment: the Yanmars come stock with larger alternators per h.p. than the Betas
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Fred Mueller
Jerezana
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John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

Hi Fred
Nice looking engine.

I’ve discussed my rational for contemplating installing an inboard ad nauseum. If you look back through the post it’s all there.

I used to race cars at the drag strip back in the day and I have a modicum if experience rebuilding engines and manual transmissions. I have a KLR I rebuilt two years ago which I enjoy riding so I still have some internal combustion engine aptitude.

I just don’t enjoy working on engine. I don’t enjoy the sound of engines on a sailboat—at all. I have no desire for an engine large enough to drive the Far Reach at hull speed.

Whatever I do, if I do anything about an inboard, will be minimal power and as simple an installation as possible. We are not opening the aperture. Much to think about.

Less is more.
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tjr818
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by tjr818 »

John Stone wrote: . . . I don’t enjoy the sound of engines on a sailboat . . . .
Our 27 has a single cylinder Yanmar, I absolutely love the sound it as she idles us out of the harbor - reminds me of the African Queen every time.
Tim
Nonsuch 26 Ultra,
Previously, Sláinte a CD27
John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

Tim. Copy all. It’s funny. I don’t dislike the smell of diesel exhaust. Lots of fond memories from diesel engines—from time as a deckhand on an upper Mississippi River towboat to my time in the Marines around amphibious assault vehicles, LAVs, and HMMWV....

It’s all about what do I gain vs what do I lose.
John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

fmueller wrote: by the way - I toured with Suzanne in the 80s - across the States twice and to Europe once. I was a rock and roll sound guy. Engineer.
Hey Fred, I meant to reply on this but got distracted and forgot. That must have been an interesting experience. There are so many talented musicians out there playing great stuff that the general public never hears about. It’s stunning actually.... of Course S Vega has had a lot of success but I just mean there is a lot of talented people out there flying below the radar making some great music.

Where did you get your sound proofing material and are you happy with it?
fmueller
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by fmueller »

John,

This is the Soundown product. It's surprisingly heavy - but if you know anything about noise abatement, weight counts. It is riveted, not glued to the various surfaces.

https://soundown.com/mass-layers-dampin ... _1=&back=1

I think my son Toby got it from McMaster-Carr, but not sure of that. Hard for me to say if I'm totally happy with the end result. I wish my new engine install was yet a little quieter, but it is much much less obnoxious than my YSM-8 was. It was hard to have a proper conversation with the YSM running.

In gear there is more transmission and prop noise than I expected, which has quite a bit of high frequency component to it - I think because most of it is structurally born. It's not particularly loud, but hard to ignore for that reason Also my feathering Slipstream prop "sings" a little. I might get the cam from Slipstream to go from 9" to 8" inches in forward mostly to see if the singing goes away, but also because I think I am just a little over propped in forward.

Out of gear the motor by itself is really not very loud at all, and exceptionally smooth - and the exhaust is hard to hear at all over wind and water noise when motoring.

The problem of course with enclosing a motor in a sound proofing box is heat. We put a fan in on 3 inch hose to the port aft cowl, the starboard cowl and hose is the passive cool air supply. The fan itself is mounted to the underside of the cockpit sole and we should have isolated it better (maybe I will this winter) because it also makes more noise than I would like, so much that I tend not to use it, especially in cooler weather. To tell the truth, I don't notice a huge difference in the ambient temp of the engine box anyway (I haven't measured it). I've never had overheating. The motor itself runs flawlessly so far. It starts nearly instantly, faster than my car. The engine oil is still amber in color. I'm just following the provided maintenance schedule.

If I had this to do again I'd be looking hard at the Yanmar equivalent because they come with significantly larger alternators stock and they are not quite as tall generally. It's a pretty tough squeeze for me to get my hands on the transmission over the top and if I need to do anything with the shaft seal (PSS type A) I'll have to remove the port side box baffle. The service access ended up being tighter than I had hoped.

The best thing we did is preserve the original (white GRP) engine pan. Anything that drips off the motor ends up in the pan and is easily cleaned up after, but more importantly, easily noticed right under the crank pully. Far better than having fluids run down into the bilge, usually surreptitiously. I my case, the factory fitting for the expansion tank started leaking a little at about 20 hours in, even though the clamp was correctly tight - the supplied clear type hose just would not seal. Solved by getting a short length of black automotive fuel type hose from Pep Boys. Point is, I could see the problem and the extent of it because of the pan.

bunch of pix here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zlpoiawhys16 ... KNGia?dl=0

Fred

Admirable thing about Suzanne is that she has stayed true to her art - very little compromise in what is now a long career - kind of like you and boats actually - no compromise.

Happily, she has made a steady living since her biggest success in the late 80s.
Last edited by fmueller on Oct 12th, '19, 16:32, edited 1 time in total.
Fred Mueller
Jerezana
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JD-MDR
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by JD-MDR »

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/BLUE-SEA-8 ... lu8082.htm Awesome work Fred. Some of you guys are way beyond anything I could even dream of. I ordered the same instrument panel from Hodges. It was $200 less than Msrp. They notified me that they do have it in stock.
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

I spent some time at the boat yesterday. Thinking. Looking. Measuring. Contemplating.

It seems I can’t get the prop as deep as I’d hoped. The reason is the inside of the hull along the centerline just forward of the rudder-post is sloped much shallower than I thought. That means for the shaft to be as deep as I wanted (about 23” below LWL) the shaft log has to exit well forward in the engine compartment. Too many cascading effects there. I think I can get the prop shaft down to about 19” below the load waterline. That means I would cut about 4” off the top of the rudder and the shaft would be as glassed into an extended skeg above the rudder, as depicted in the photo below. Shaft down angle is 5°. I made a mock-up 16” prop from some foam. I marked the load waterline with some thin messenger line taped to the hull above the mock-up so I could better visualize the relationship of prop shaft to LWL.

The PVC shaft depicts the space needle for a 2” wide zinc, 3” of propeller hub, then the space needed for the folding blades and associated gears. I acquired the measurements from flex o fold propellers in Denmark.

With the boat moving forward in smoothish water it’s a non issue. The stern-quarter wake will rise up and there will be plenty of water over the prop. The faster you go the more the wake rises up under the stern counter and the more water over the prop. It’s true that significant pitching could cause prop cavitation. How much pitching before cavitation—I don’t know.

A question I’m thinking about, and have all along is will the prop ventilate in reverse (I don’t think it will in forward as the outboard prop has never ventilated)? The outboard with 2.25:1 reduction gear reduced 5500 RPM max revolutions to about 2400rpm at the hub. And worked well enough. As mentioned previously it really only ventilated in reverse. And then just a thin funnel of air snaked down to the prop when the boat was mostly stationary before she gathered sternway. The inboard engine prop will turn much slower than the outboard prop—about 1,600 rpm at full throttle at the hub. Cruise speed forward about 900 rpm at the hub (2200 engine RPM). Depth of blade tips below the LWL about the same for both outboard and inboard as pictures below.

Much to think about.
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fmueller
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by fmueller »

John,

Just a thought ...

It's not uncommon to see boats that have a prop shaft exits the hull at a slight angle to centerline to counter the effects of prop walk. I was just noticing a boat over in the marina where Jerezana spends the winter, and I should take a shot and edit into this thread. You usually only see this on boats where the there is a big gap between the keel (fin usually) and (usually) a spade type rudder hung well aft. You see it on single prop power boats too. The offset angle is usually quite slight (single digits in degrees I suspect).

Anyway it occurs to me that you might be able to use this to your advantage positioning the engine block in the available space you have on Far Reach. If your boat is like my boat you (will) have prop walk to port; more noticeable in reverse, but present in forward. I am imagining in your case, then, you might be able to mount the engine slightly to port in your engine space but rotate** it so the shaft exits (crossing the centerline of the hull) to starboard and that might help create some additional clearance for the shaft log and seal than if you just offset the engine and exit parallel to centerline on same side - any lessening of prop walk would just be a bonus.

Maybe this already ocurred to you ?

** by an amount that would counter likely prop walk

cheers

Fred
Fred Mueller
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John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

Thanks Fred. That’s my thinking too. Hal Roth wrote that he offset the shaft about 5 degrees on Whisper and steered almost straight under power going forward. I’ll have to see what’s in the art of the possible.

My research tells me prop-walk in reverse is exacerbated by the downward angle of the shaft. The more horizontal I can make the shaft the less pronounced it will be. I think 5° is minimal though. I think prop-walk will work to my advantage if it’s not dramatic. But the reality is the boat will have serious backing issues with the prop behind the rudder. I’m going for sailing performance over motoring performance. So I accept it.
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

Well, I got started yesterday and drilled an exploratory hole. Two in fact. In the process I snapped of two inches of a 12” long 3/16” drill bit in the hull. Not a happy moment. Took me about 1.5 hours to recover it.

Anyway, today I drilled a 2 1/4” diameter hull through the pilot hole I drilled yesterday and into the engine compartment. Then I slide the 1.75” G10 stern tube into the hole to check for fit. The down angle is about 6° and I have some wiggle room from nearly dead parallel to the centerline up up to 10° Angling aft to starboard.

Next step is to remove some wood supports I had glassed into the hull in the old engine room which supported one of the anchors and the walnut sole. That will allow me to get an accurate feel for the alignment

Then I need to remove the rudder (and cut about 4” off the top). Then start building an extension for the skeg below the butt water but above the rudder. It basically will replace the part of the rudder I remove.

I won’t tab the stern tub in till I’m certain of the way it needs to be positioned. Obviously it will be cut off right at the trailing edge of the skeg.

That will keep me busy for awhile.
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Lots of room for a small inboard. It will also be easy to get to the stuffing box.
Lots of room for a small inboard. It will also be easy to get to the stuffing box.
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The stern tube fits with some extra room necessary to allow a just right fit and space for epoxy to be forced in around the tube.
The stern tube fits with some extra room necessary to allow a just right fit and space for epoxy to be forced in around the tube.
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This looks close to parallel to the centerline.
This looks close to parallel to the centerline.
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John Stone
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Re: Engine Installation on the Far Reach

Post by John Stone »

Working in the boatyard does not compare to having the boat in the Sailboat Restoration Facility (SRF) in my back yard.
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Making Do in the boatyard.
Making Do in the boatyard.
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