Hi,
My recently acquired (2 months or so) CD 22 is a sweet boat to sail, but it is not well set-up for single handed sailing which is what I do most of the time. I am contemplating installing a deck organizer, lead blocks and some cleating capabilities on the cabin deck to at least lead my main sail halyard lift and the topping lift aft to the cockpit and closer to my reach.
This, of course will require drilling penetrations into the overhead for bolts to secure these items. From the online manual posted elsewhere on this site, it is my understanding that the liner on the inside of the cabin is attached (glued?) to the cabin "roof-sandwich". However, when I push against the liner in my boat I can feel a certain amount of "give" that makes me wonder if in actuality I can expect to find some air space between the liner and the roof-sandwich.
So my question for the group is: has anyone else done this or is familiar with the method of construction on these boats enough to provide some advice as to what I am likely to encounter while attempting to install the equipment. I have done this on my previous boat (a Cal 24, T4, 1973 vintage) but I did not have to contend with an overhead liner (long story for another time) so this is new territory for me. Any advice on procedures and/or optimum placement would be quite welcome. Thanks in advance,
Robert
1982/83 CD22, Hull #122
Cabin overhead penetrations
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Anthony P. Jeske
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Feb 11th, '05, 10:33
- Location: C&C 27 MkV
FLYING CIRCUS
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Hi:
If you search "headliner" on this site, you'll find the help you need.
Good Luck,
Tony Jeske
If you search "headliner" on this site, you'll find the help you need.
Good Luck,
Tony Jeske
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tjr818
- Posts: 1851
- Joined: Oct 13th, '07, 13:42
- Location: Previously owned 1980 CD 27 Slainte, Hull #185. NO.1257949
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
I am not familiar with the 22, but on our 27 you can discover a lot by temporarily removing one of the overhead lights. I found almost an inch between the cabin top and the liner at those points, it does seem to vary.
Tim
Nonsuch 26 Ultra,
Previously, Sláinte a CD27
Nonsuch 26 Ultra,
Previously, Sláinte a CD27
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John Stone
- Posts: 3621
- Joined: Oct 6th, '08, 07:30
- Location: S/V Far Reach: CD 36 #61 www.farreachvoayges.net www.farreachvoyages.com
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
I removed the headliner in my boat. Not suggesting you should do that. But I learned a lot about how it was constructed and installed.
There is an air gap between the fiberglass head liner and the underside of the deck. However, there are places where there is no gap—where the mastic was applied to bond the liner to the underside of the deck.
Were it me, I’d figure out where the backing plate needed to be—maybe drill down through the hardwares holes and through the deck and liner. Then take a large hole saw and cut a hole through the liner from the inside. Fill the balsa core with thickened epoxy and redrill for the hardware. Bed and install the hardware and backing plate. Then cut a piece of hardwood with a larger hole saw and install it with bronze half-oval fasteners. The wood acts as a removable cover plate that allows you to get to the nuts on the backing plate.
Be aware, right around the mast, on my boat anyway, there was very little air gap.
There is an air gap between the fiberglass head liner and the underside of the deck. However, there are places where there is no gap—where the mastic was applied to bond the liner to the underside of the deck.
Were it me, I’d figure out where the backing plate needed to be—maybe drill down through the hardwares holes and through the deck and liner. Then take a large hole saw and cut a hole through the liner from the inside. Fill the balsa core with thickened epoxy and redrill for the hardware. Bed and install the hardware and backing plate. Then cut a piece of hardwood with a larger hole saw and install it with bronze half-oval fasteners. The wood acts as a removable cover plate that allows you to get to the nuts on the backing plate.
Be aware, right around the mast, on my boat anyway, there was very little air gap.
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Thanks for the replies; question for John,
When you removed your headliner, was it your experience that the headliner tended to be glued to the underside of the deck along the edges or perimeter of the deck? also, was the underside of the balsa core exposed or coated with something?
When you removed your headliner, was it your experience that the headliner tended to be glued to the underside of the deck along the edges or perimeter of the deck? also, was the underside of the balsa core exposed or coated with something?
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John Stone
- Posts: 3621
- Joined: Oct 6th, '08, 07:30
- Location: S/V Far Reach: CD 36 #61 www.farreachvoayges.net www.farreachvoyages.com
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Rob
I imagine your bolt was built in a manner similar to mine but since I am not certain I can only state what is true for my boat—CD 36 #61.
It was built with three main parts. The hull was laid up in the hull mold. The deck was laid up in a deck mold. The liner was laid up in a liner mold. Once all three were cured they were removed from their respective molds. Probably the overhead liner was positioned over the boat with the bulkheads already installed in the boat. Mastic bonding glue (polyester resin with thickener) was goofed on to the top of the liner and hull deck joint and the deck fitted down over the boat and the fasteners installed. That’s what I think—not what I know.
Mostly, I found the mastic under the side decks...my recollection is in the middle but it was applied across the width of the deck. IOWs, the liner and deck were bonded primarily in the area of the side deck. You might find some pictures here. http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... erior.html
The deck has gelcoat, chopped strand, then fiberglass cloth (woven roving) with polyester resin. Then, balsa core. Then, the bottom layer of fiberglass cloth (woven roving) and polyester resin. So, the deck is pretty conventional construction—sandwiched balsa core between upper and lower levels of fiberglass cloth wetted out with polyester resin.
It’s a very strong system. The idea behind the liner was good. To provide a clean handsome easy to maintain waterproof barrier between the deck and the interior of the boat. But it caused two problems.
1. It requires cutting through the liner to access the underside of deck to add backing plates for hardware. Not such a big deal in the scheme of things but still it can be messy.
2. Great difficulty in tracking down the source of leaks. The water can migrate along the top of the liner and emerge a long way from the source of the leak.
Still, the more I sail the boat the more it impresses me. The more I learn about fiberglass boat construction the more Cape Dories impress me. Production boat building requires some compromises. To be more accurate, all boat building requires some compromises. Having completely gutted my boat and learned every secret she had I believe Cape Dory did their best to build a great boat. There are some frustrating issues with CDs sure, but most are minor issues. They are wonderfully strong...and anything can be fixed, modified, repaired, etc. and the boats have lasted. Many of them are over 40 years old. I’d put the Far Reach up against any fiberglass boat in her size range afloat regardless when it was made.
I imagine your bolt was built in a manner similar to mine but since I am not certain I can only state what is true for my boat—CD 36 #61.
It was built with three main parts. The hull was laid up in the hull mold. The deck was laid up in a deck mold. The liner was laid up in a liner mold. Once all three were cured they were removed from their respective molds. Probably the overhead liner was positioned over the boat with the bulkheads already installed in the boat. Mastic bonding glue (polyester resin with thickener) was goofed on to the top of the liner and hull deck joint and the deck fitted down over the boat and the fasteners installed. That’s what I think—not what I know.
Mostly, I found the mastic under the side decks...my recollection is in the middle but it was applied across the width of the deck. IOWs, the liner and deck were bonded primarily in the area of the side deck. You might find some pictures here. http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... erior.html
The deck has gelcoat, chopped strand, then fiberglass cloth (woven roving) with polyester resin. Then, balsa core. Then, the bottom layer of fiberglass cloth (woven roving) and polyester resin. So, the deck is pretty conventional construction—sandwiched balsa core between upper and lower levels of fiberglass cloth wetted out with polyester resin.
It’s a very strong system. The idea behind the liner was good. To provide a clean handsome easy to maintain waterproof barrier between the deck and the interior of the boat. But it caused two problems.
1. It requires cutting through the liner to access the underside of deck to add backing plates for hardware. Not such a big deal in the scheme of things but still it can be messy.
2. Great difficulty in tracking down the source of leaks. The water can migrate along the top of the liner and emerge a long way from the source of the leak.
Still, the more I sail the boat the more it impresses me. The more I learn about fiberglass boat construction the more Cape Dories impress me. Production boat building requires some compromises. To be more accurate, all boat building requires some compromises. Having completely gutted my boat and learned every secret she had I believe Cape Dory did their best to build a great boat. There are some frustrating issues with CDs sure, but most are minor issues. They are wonderfully strong...and anything can be fixed, modified, repaired, etc. and the boats have lasted. Many of them are over 40 years old. I’d put the Far Reach up against any fiberglass boat in her size range afloat regardless when it was made.
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Thanks so much for the wonderfully detailed description. I took the time to look over your site and your pictures of the restoration of your CD. My hat off to you !!!.
I can identify with at least some of your experiences taking apart and rebuilding the cabin overhead. I had a Cal 24 T-4 of 1973 vintage which I purchased after the plywood (rotted) and fiberglass layers were removed from the underside of the deck by the prior owner. While the previous owner had removed the loose layers of the sandwich, the underside of the deck fiberglass was extremely rough/uneven with residual adhesive and remnant chunks of plywood. I spent a miserable series of weekends literally grinding and sanding down that stuff to achieve a reasonably even surface that I could then rebuild against. All this on my knees and pushing up as the Cal did not allow for standing.
I started the process of rebuilding the old sandwich using 3-inch wide, cedar planks which butted against each other to cover the entire underside of the deck. I cold formed each plank by gluing two 3/8 thick boards with adhesive and then placed the planks in a special jig that I built to allow them to "cure" with a curvature that followed the original curvature of the deck. Each plank was then cut to fit exactly across the width of the cabin overhead (close to 8' mid cabin) while the ends butted up against a, rather tenuous, remnant lip (maybe 1/4") of the liner which had been glassed to the hull insides by Cal. Thankfully the previous owner inadvertently created that lip in place while cutting out the liner. Each plank had enough flex that I could then bend it in the middle while the ends rested on the remnant lip and against the hull. I could then apply adhesive to the side of the plank that would butt up against the underside of the deck, and, by pushing up each plank "snapped" back up to regain the curvature that had been cold formed. This eliminated the need for fighting sagging due to the pull of gravity, formed a continuous bond between the planks and the underside of the deck, and resulted in the deck regaining its original curvature. I had plans for then installing a cosmetic liner similar to the boards that you used and mounted so as to create removable panels that would provided access to deck penetrations. Life took over and I did not get a chance to finish that part.
I now get to enjoy my CD since it is in pretty good shape inside. I just need to make it a little more convenient to sail single handed. Thanks again.
I can identify with at least some of your experiences taking apart and rebuilding the cabin overhead. I had a Cal 24 T-4 of 1973 vintage which I purchased after the plywood (rotted) and fiberglass layers were removed from the underside of the deck by the prior owner. While the previous owner had removed the loose layers of the sandwich, the underside of the deck fiberglass was extremely rough/uneven with residual adhesive and remnant chunks of plywood. I spent a miserable series of weekends literally grinding and sanding down that stuff to achieve a reasonably even surface that I could then rebuild against. All this on my knees and pushing up as the Cal did not allow for standing.
I started the process of rebuilding the old sandwich using 3-inch wide, cedar planks which butted against each other to cover the entire underside of the deck. I cold formed each plank by gluing two 3/8 thick boards with adhesive and then placed the planks in a special jig that I built to allow them to "cure" with a curvature that followed the original curvature of the deck. Each plank was then cut to fit exactly across the width of the cabin overhead (close to 8' mid cabin) while the ends butted up against a, rather tenuous, remnant lip (maybe 1/4") of the liner which had been glassed to the hull insides by Cal. Thankfully the previous owner inadvertently created that lip in place while cutting out the liner. Each plank had enough flex that I could then bend it in the middle while the ends rested on the remnant lip and against the hull. I could then apply adhesive to the side of the plank that would butt up against the underside of the deck, and, by pushing up each plank "snapped" back up to regain the curvature that had been cold formed. This eliminated the need for fighting sagging due to the pull of gravity, formed a continuous bond between the planks and the underside of the deck, and resulted in the deck regaining its original curvature. I had plans for then installing a cosmetic liner similar to the boards that you used and mounted so as to create removable panels that would provided access to deck penetrations. Life took over and I did not get a chance to finish that part.
I now get to enjoy my CD since it is in pretty good shape inside. I just need to make it a little more convenient to sail single handed. Thanks again.
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s2sailorlis
- Posts: 387
- Joined: Apr 9th, '14, 18:39
- Location: 1984 Cape Dory 22
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
I have a CD22 and it was rigged to have all lines led aft.
The normal technique is to assess position of gear placement, drill your holes thru deck and liner, remove liner area by cutting hole, add backing plate, etc. then get a liner cover to cover the hole.
Pretty straightforward task. Here are pix of exterior lines, I’m not a big fan as to how the organizer was placed as the angle it runs is much to large and adds considerable friction. It’s a function of the deck design on the 22 which isn’t really that great...if the deck organizer was placed too far back it would be over the bulkhead...too far back and you’d get chafe from the hatch.
Only real solution is to raise where the halyard, Cunningham make their initial turn and make a raised deck organizer.
The current layout works ok for me.
The normal technique is to assess position of gear placement, drill your holes thru deck and liner, remove liner area by cutting hole, add backing plate, etc. then get a liner cover to cover the hole.
Pretty straightforward task. Here are pix of exterior lines, I’m not a big fan as to how the organizer was placed as the angle it runs is much to large and adds considerable friction. It’s a function of the deck design on the 22 which isn’t really that great...if the deck organizer was placed too far back it would be over the bulkhead...too far back and you’d get chafe from the hatch.
Only real solution is to raise where the halyard, Cunningham make their initial turn and make a raised deck organizer.
The current layout works ok for me.
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Rick
1984 CD22
Excuse auto-correct typos courtesy of iOS...or simply lazy typing
Rick
1984 CD22
Excuse auto-correct typos courtesy of iOS...or simply lazy typing
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Rick, thanks for the reply and pics. They help to visualize a possible layout. Quick question regarding the set-up on your boat: how was the liner on the inside finished after the backing plates and fasteners installed? Just looking for ideas ...
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s2sailorlis
- Posts: 387
- Joined: Apr 9th, '14, 18:39
- Location: 1984 Cape Dory 22
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
I’ll snap some pictures when I’m at the boat this weekend, or if I can get there Thursday. It’s only 10 min from my house but this week might be busy..
Basically... the PO used several methods, plus Cape Dory used a specific method...
Cape Dory would place a flat teak round cover with an inner flange to which you’d screw the cover into the headliner. Very nice and traditional. (See attached pic center too, might be hard to see but you’ll get the drift...)
The PO used the “trailer park method” of “this and that”:
1) flat starboard round cover
2) plastic cup shape covers similar to the back of a bulkhead mounted compass, ie with a flange to mount screws into liner
3) etc...
You’ll also notice the PO removed the folding tables...moron...
Basically... the PO used several methods, plus Cape Dory used a specific method...
Cape Dory would place a flat teak round cover with an inner flange to which you’d screw the cover into the headliner. Very nice and traditional. (See attached pic center too, might be hard to see but you’ll get the drift...)
The PO used the “trailer park method” of “this and that”:
1) flat starboard round cover
2) plastic cup shape covers similar to the back of a bulkhead mounted compass, ie with a flange to mount screws into liner
3) etc...
You’ll also notice the PO removed the folding tables...moron...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
______________
Rick
1984 CD22
Excuse auto-correct typos courtesy of iOS...or simply lazy typing
Rick
1984 CD22
Excuse auto-correct typos courtesy of iOS...or simply lazy typing
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s2sailorlis
- Posts: 387
- Joined: Apr 9th, '14, 18:39
- Location: 1984 Cape Dory 22
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Pix...
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______________
Rick
1984 CD22
Excuse auto-correct typos courtesy of iOS...or simply lazy typing
Rick
1984 CD22
Excuse auto-correct typos courtesy of iOS...or simply lazy typing
Re: Cabin overhead penetrations
Hi Rick. Thanks for the pics … that's quite a collection of covers 
I have the little buttons as well. Also after you mentioned a round wood plate I remembered that I have one of those. I've attached some pics of the plate to round-off your collection and also so maybe others can get some ideas as well.
I have the little buttons as well. Also after you mentioned a round wood plate I remembered that I have one of those. I've attached some pics of the plate to round-off your collection and also so maybe others can get some ideas as well.You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.