ARE COCKPIT DRAIN SEACOCKS REALLY NECESSARY?

[Sea Hunt Video]

I doubt this issue will ever rise to the level of “tiller v. wheel” or “locked prop v. unlocked prop” but one never knows on this board.

I remain in sick bay (more accurately, modified duty) with some of my normal foolish activities curtailed. One important activity I had wanted to try to perform was removing, servicing and reinstalling four (4) of the seacocks on S/V Bali Ha’i. For reasons I fully and sadly appreciate, I have delayed and delayed doing this task.

While not currently fully active physically, my brain is still marginally functional. I have been thinking about the two (2) cockpit drain seacocks on my Cape Dory 25D. They are both frozen in the open position. I do not think they were ever serviced by the prior caretaker and I have not serviced them since assuming caretaker status. So far, no amount of effort to loosen the handles has worked.

Frankly, beginning about two (2) weeks ago (after consumption of 2-3 Guinness) I started trying to understand the need for seacocks for the cockpit scupper drain hoses. I am a rookie at a lot of this stuff and readily admit there may be one or more very good reasons for cockpit drain seacocks. I just cannot think of one.

As I understand the rules the cockpit seacocks are supposed to ALWAYS remain open, especially when no one is aboard, so that water does not fill the cockpit from a closed seacock.

I then started thinking about what would happen, and what I would do, if there was a leak in the seacock or the connecting scupper drain hose. I worked my way down from the scupper drain to the backing plate for the seacock and the thru hull fitting.

From what little I know, I think that a leak or crack in the connecting scupper drain hose would start out as small. I check the cockpit drain hoses, water in the engine sump, etc., on a regular basis so I assume I would notice the beginnings of a small crack or leak in a scupper drain hose.

Wrapping some type of tape (I have several rolls of Rescue Tape aboard) should temporarily stop the leak. I suppose you could close the seacock (if the handle worked) while wrapping the hose with tape but I am not sure what significant benefit you would achieve by this. Gravity will always determine the water level in the hose. If it is a major break in the hose then one of the wood plugs sold at West Marine (and other chandlers) could easily be pushed into the scupper drain hose to staunch the flow of seawater. I have several bags of variously sized wood plugs stored aft near the engine compartment and forward in the marine head.

Moving down to the seacock itself, from what I can see of their design (mine are original Spartan Marine bronze circa 1982), again I would think it would probably be a small leak - perhaps by excessive wear on the seacock cone or a leak from the flange nut, the body of the seacock, etc. Regardless of the leak location, assuming it is a quality seacock, in my mind it would not be a catastrophic failure of the seacock. I would notice “weeping” in the seacock and make temporary repairs with Rescue Tape or similar. The only time closing the seacock would help is if the leak in the seacock was from a place ABOVE the hole in the seacock cone. If the leak is BELOW this cone hole then “closing” the seacock would not stop the leak. At least I do not think so.

Of course, the seacock itself could break away from the backing plate and/or interior fiberglass hull. If that happened then the only solution is very large plugs. Closing the seacock would be useless. I have two of the large orange/red cones (“True Plug”) that should plug a hole up to about 3" in diameter.

I am trying to understand if there is any true safety purpose to a seacock for the cockpit scupper drains. I understand the need/desire for a seacock for the engine raw water intake and the galley sink drain hose seacock and the marine head intake seacock. All of these are generally “closed” except when needed.

The two cockpit scupper seacocks remain a mystery to me. What useful purpose do they serve

[JD-MDR]

Hi Roberto. I think the cockpit needs to drain for rain water and especially when sailing and a waves splashes in. I finally got to all 6 of my valves and I found them all to come loose if I loosen the nut a little and tap with a piece of wood or something. I actually serviced them all with lapping compound. At least ten years without attention and only the two for the head were bad. I think you can see them in an earlier "seacock maintainence" post.

[Sea Hunt Video]

JD-MDR:

Sorry. My post was not clear. I understand the need for the cockpit to drain from rain water, sea state water, etc. I just don't understand the need for cockpit drain seacocks. I guess what I am asking is why not just have the cockpit scupper drain hose run directly from the cockpit scupper drain fitting directly to the thru-hull

On my Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender that was how it was set up by the prior caretaker and it worked great. Someone recently posted a photo of a Ty Weekender with the same set up.

I just don't understand the necessity for a seacock for the two (2) scupper drain hoses when you can just run the hose directly from the scupper drain fitting to the thru-hull. This eliminates a piece of hardware that can fail as well as eliminating the need to remove and service two seacocks. My friend Joe Myerson can attest to the "body damage" inflicted on those of us who are caretakers of a Cape Dory 25D. The two cockpit scupper drain seacocks are, for lack of a better term, %#%!$!%* to access.

[JD-MDR]

In One of my previous boats a 1949 Morgan Giles The hose from the drains went to the opposite side seacock so the boat can heel more without water coming in and you can close the one valve so water can't flow in. Also on my CD30K the cockpit valves have a stiff rod attached to the handle that makes it easier to use

[Dick Kobayashi]

Roberto. Unless you are "Plastic Man" or have skilled and lithe 12 year old available they are impossible to access. Verdict - if the hoses themselves are not leaking rain/seawater into the bilge - forgetaboutit.

[tjr818]

. . . Wrapping some type of tape (I have several rolls of Rescue Tape aboard) should temporarily stop the leak. I suppose you could close the seacock (if the handle worked) while wrapping the hose with tape but I am not sure what significant benefit you would achieve by this. Gravity will always determine the water level in the hose. If it is a major break in the hose then one of the wood plugs sold at West Marine (and other chandlers) could easily be pushed into the scupper drain hose to staunch the flow of seawater. I have several bags of variously sized wood plugs stored aft near the engine compartment and forward in the marine head. . . .

Roberto, I am with you on wondering about the need for those seacocks. Since we are primarily a daysailors, the cockpit seacocks on Slainte spend 90-95% of there life unattended, who is there to shut them or try to drive in one those wooden plugs when the spring a leak? Many Typhoon owners have abandoned the cockpit seacocks. If ours ever need replacing I am not sure that I would not just unscrew the seacock and hook the hose straight up to the through hull.

Now about those wooden plugs - having dealt with many various water leaks in different pieces of equipment that I have tried to keep alive over the years I have found it next to impossible to plug a broken hose. The scupper hoses are most likely wire wound and when the hose breaks, I believe that you will have a devil of a time trying to find a round hole for one of those round pegs. Rescue tape seems promising, but I worry that the tape, spending most of its life cooking in the Florida sun, might not work as well as it does in the studio where they film those commercials.

Do you keep your Black Box full? http://www.johnvigor.com/Black_Box_Theory.html

[Steve Laume]

"If ours ever need replacing I am not sure that I would not just unscrew the seacock and hook the hose straight up to the through hull".

Don't do that. Once you have eliminated the seacock that connection becomes even more critical. I don't really see the need for the seacock either but if you are going to get rid of it you will need to replace the threaded seacock with one that has a proper hose barb and secure it with a couple of good clamps.

I cut away part of the shelf in my cockpit locker to better access the starboard seacock. It is still the hardest one on the boat but at least I can reach it now. I Raven's seacocks were frozen in place I would either free them up or get rid of them. Since they are working, nicely, I will keep them that way. Even if it is for no good reason. Cape Dory thought they were a good idea, Steve.

[Sea Hunt Video]

I am a little surprised at the lack of more responses, comments, etc.

I would have thought that suggesting cockpit seacocks are unnecessary would have engendered more responses, particularly those that said "that's the craziest idea I ever heard of "

I guess when sailors with the experience and expertise of Dick K., Tim, and Steve L. basically agree that cockpit seacocks are not really necessary for safety it says something.

Taking Dick K.'s sound advise I now plan to just leave well enough alone with respect to the two cockpit seacocks. The hoses look good and both ends on both hoses have double clamps. Once back in the water I will regularly monitor for leaks, etc. When the day comes that the hoses have to be replaced I will probably then just remove the seacocks, probably install new thru hulls and new hoses.

Now I just have to service two (2) seacocks - raw water intake and galley sink. The galley sink one is difficult but I think it can be done with minimal cursing and blood letting.

[Jim Cornwell]

I've pondered this one too - the presence of a seacock doesn't seem to make any sense for a drain that must always remain open. But here's what I concluded one dark and stormy night: Every through-hull must have a means of shut-off. In the event the drain hose is damaged - let's say by fumbling the lunch hook while trying to lift it out of the locker - or some other stupid mishap - there'd better be a way of closing the resulting hole in the bottom of the boat. As noted above, the tapered plug almost surely won't be of any use. And where's that roll of rescue tape - or adhesive tape - or scotch tape - when you really need it? So Neptune gave our Cape Dories a pair of seacocks, always on duty down there in the murk, whispering to us, "service me, service me!".

[Steve Laume]

Having a piece of safety equipment that doesn't work is worse than than not having anything. I would either service them or eliminate them since the boat is out of the water now. Not that anything is likely to go wrong but it just seems like the right thing to do, Steve.

[gates_cliff]

Seems to me that the seacocks ought to be maintained and kept.

Anything like a rubber hose, albeit reinforced is subject to failure and if it does while you are out in a fresh breeze, well just be sure you have your life vest on.

[Ken Textor]

If the original question had been "useful" instead of "necessary", my answer would have been a resounding YES. Here's why:

Because I spent many years enjoying wooden boats before turning to CDs, I followed the ancient launching rule for wooden boats. That is, always turn off ALL seacocks before spring launching. This helps identify where the water is coming in before the planks all soak up and the leaks stop. Once the planks are all soaked up, the seacocks are opened one by one and checked (visually) for leaks. That would include cockpit seacocks which can then be left open all season, or just while someone is aboard, your choice.

So if you want to check for (or find) leaks for any reason, being able to turn off all seacocks is useful ... but not really necessary. Actually, considering things that are "necessary" can become a philosophical question, one that I'm sure we don't want to start up here ... or do we.

Ken in Maine

P.S. My 1985 CD 26 also had seacocks that had never been maintained or closed. While trying to make them functional, they crumbled and had to be replaced.

[Bill Goldsmith]

Yes they are necessary and should be maintained. The hoses drain below the water line. Every hole in the boat below the water line with a rubber hose attached to it needs a seacock.

[Joe Myerson]

Roberto,
As others have said, it's very important to have working seacocks for your cockpit drains, in case the hoses fail.
When I first launched Creme Brulee, the yard crew left the head intake open and the flush valve in the "up" position. The boat nearly sank on the dock.

In reaction, I closed ALL my seacocks. The next week was a rainy one, and the boat almost sank at her mooring.

Morale of the tale: Always close the head seacocks when not in use, and leave the cockpit drains open. In years past, I only serviced the cockpit drain seacocks every other year. Lately, I've been doing it annually. It's a real PITA that gets more painful with each passing year.

Hope you're on the mend, Roberto.

--Joe

[Dick Kobayashi]

Consider the following: The level of water in the cockpit drain hoses is equal to the water level outside the boat. - Thus if there is a hole in the drain hoses and the seacocks are open - the boat will flood. Thus what is really crucial is to determine periodically if there are holes in the hoses. If so, you need the seacocks - if not. you don't. I have never heard of or experienced a hole in one of these hoses...but I might someday. Even so I am taking my chances as a I am not "plastic man"