Diesel vs Outboard

[Michael Bowden]

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB



Bownez@sprynet.com

[Tom]

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

I've sailed a 26 with outboard but not the 25D so can't compare them for you, but a 9.9 outboard pushes the 26 nicely. Two things you didn't mention though and might consider are 1) Noise factor with the outboard 2) Necessity of carrying gasoline with the smell and potential explosive ability.



TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Mark Yashinsky]

You should not focus on one aspect of the boats. You have to look at the whole boat. the 25/25D/27 have completely different interior layouts. What are you planning for the boat and which works the best??? Look at the number of crew you will be taking aboard. Do you have enough space??? What is available, in your price range, in the area you are looking, for how long??? Etc, etc, etc. Remeber, this is a sailboat and hopefully you will be using the wind and not the fuel to move her.

[Larry DeMers]

I would also warn of another problem with an outboard. As you mention, the prop is close to the waterline. The time that you will need your engine the worst, and where the outboard will perform the poorest happen to occur simultaneously..when it is blowing like stink out, and the waves have some size to them. As you try to go back to port against that 20 or 30 kt. wind and it's waves, the prop will be sucking air into it's blade, and cavitating repeatedly. What happens is that the rpm of the motor will alternate between the setting you intended, and the rpm achieved with no load on the prop. What this does to the engine I can imagine. Alternately loading up the engine with a normal load, then unloading the engine,a nd allowing the prop to spin freely, only to be resubmerged and reloaded again cannot be good for the engines long time life perspective. It stresses everything in the drivetrain. The net HP that you get over time is far lower too, fdue to this effect.

AS a way of comparing HP to weight, I have 13hp pushing 10,000lbs. (CD30), and can get 6 kts at 2000 rpm. I can gaurantee you that the 10hp outboard would not push my boat nearly as fast or as well and trouble free. Mileage is another plus for the diesel. I burn somewhere around 1/4 gallon/hr. at speed, which is a number that you can count on repeatedly. Gas guzzlers drink that stuff like it's vodka night in the Kremlin.
If you are serious about your sailing, you probably will use sail 99% of the time. But up here on Superior, most of us sailors have adopted a rule, not to be broken. 'You must have two forms of propulsion available at all times, and under all circumstances'. The outboard powered vessel barely qualifies for this in my book..and then only under good circumstances (wave height not too steep).

All sailboats are a compromise of some sorts. If the gas outboard is the only way to power your boat, and you love your boat, what do you do? You compromise and adopt to the conditions. But in adopting to the conditions, I have seen many sailors restricting their sailing area or weather due to the compromise they made. They clearly are not all-weather capable. That seems unsafe to me at worst, and an inconvenience at best.

Go for the diesel if it is at all possible.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
~~~Sailing Lake Superior..4 weeks until we start spring work!~~

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

demers@sgi.com

[Rich Passmore]

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom ...

I sail a CD26 and feel I should chime in to defend the model, there are so few of us out there. What everyone else said is more or less true. Yes, the well does take a little bit of cockpit room, but that's why it's a 26, not a 25 - some room was added for the well. Depending on where you sail, I'm on inland waters, the shallow prop may or may not be an issue. I run with the hatch closed so noise and vibration are tolerable. My Yamaha 9.9 has an alternator, electric start, etc. and seems to be fairly fuel efficient. It probably comes down to what's available in your market when you're ready to buy. Had a CD25D been available in my area, that's the boat I probably would have bought. But, having lived with the CD26 now for two seasons, I'm not unhappy with the choice.



rpassmore42@hotmail.com

[Neil Gordon]

>>The diesel has great fuel mileage, ...<<

The cost of fuel will be lost in the rounding as compared to all the other costs related to the boat... fuel consumption is important only as to range.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[Larry DeMers]

Rich,

As I said..we all made compromises when we got into this obsession called sailing. You spelled that out beautifully in your letter. What will work for you on an inland lake situation would (in some circumstances) be dangerous on the great lakes for instance, where 5-8 ft. waves happen every day it seems. But the truth is that, if the outboard power is satisfactory to you, then that is all that counts really.

Have a good weekend!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom ...

I sail a CD26 and feel I should chime in to defend the model, there are so few of us out there. What everyone else said is more or less true. Yes, the well does take a little bit of cockpit room, but that's why it's a 26, not a 25 - some room was added for the well. Depending on where you sail, I'm on inland waters, the shallow prop may or may not be an issue. I run with the hatch closed so noise and vibration are tolerable. My Yamaha 9.9 has an alternator, electric start, etc. and seems to be fairly fuel efficient. It probably comes down to what's available in your market when you're ready to buy. Had a CD25D been available in my area, that's the boat I probably would have bought. But, having lived with the CD26 now for two seasons, I'm not unhappy with the choice.

demers@sgi.com

[Don Sargeant]

COQUINA, our 25D, has the Westerbeke option and never lacks push. I have a friend with a 26/Honda and it performs very well in Long Island Sound. The boats are externally identical except for the additional foot of overhang to contain the outboard on the 26. Access to the diesel is awful but the lack of noise, gasoline and fuel consumption makes up for it. The very rare 26D would be ideal.

Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Lying quietly in Greenwich Cove

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

I've sailed a 26 with outboard but not the 25D so can't compare them for you, but a 9.9 outboard pushes the 26 nicely. Two things you didn't mention though and might consider are 1) Noise factor with the outboard 2) Necessity of carrying gasoline with the smell and potential explosive ability.

[John K.]

I sail a 26 with an outboard. The 9.9 4-stroke Yamaha is more than enough power. The prop coming out of the water has never been a problem. The thing I do miss is more electrical power - can't handle pumps for shower, water heater, etc, etc. On the other hand, the boat's simplicity can be viewed as one of it's advantages. Our family of four goes out for week-long summer cruises and we make due just fine.

[Darin Bartram]

I, too, have the 26, with an 8hp outboard, and have no complaints about the power. I sail on the Chesapeake, which can get pretty choppy. I have been out on the water in 5'+ waves and heavy chop and, in my four years with the 26, have had the prop come out of the water on only one rogue wave. By any account, the weather that day was nasty. However, the outboard continued to push me across the Bay at a good pace, and I got home safely. I suppose this is no surprise. These are very well-designed, stable boats, and I have a hard time believing that Cape Dory would ever format a boat for an outboard if that did not make sense.

As for fuel consumption--I have used about 6 gallons per season (except for last season, when I used the boat all of one time, and only used about 1/2 gallon). The tanks on either side of the outboard can hold a total of 12 gallons. I've never come close to running out. My view is that there are more important considerations than fuel efficiency when my usage is so low. Much more important to me is the ability to yank the engine at the end of the season, drop it off at my local marina for easy service, and, when it finally gives up the ghost, know that I can replace it with a new one for a mere $1500. I'd like to see the diesel-lovers try that!

One thing to look for in an outboard is the extra long shaft. I think a short shaft is 15", which is only good for a dinghy. The long shaft is generally 20", and I've heard of several CD25s and 26s that use these without complaint. I would think, especially if you're concerned about having the prop well below the waterline, that you would want the extra long shaft, which is 25".

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

dbartram@bakerlaw.com

[David Brownlee]

We owned a CD 25 with outboard-in-the-well before buying a CD 27 with a Yanmar YSM8. We've had the 27 for 8 years and cruised her extensively on Chesapeake Bay, 10-14 days at a time. We love the little diesel, and would not be eager to return to the smell and noise of the gasoline engine, not to mention the drag of the well. We've found that the very simple diesel is reliable, easy to understand and trouble shoot, and cheap to operate and repair. It pushes the boat at 6 knots at full throttle in a calm, or cruises at 5 knots under most conditions. In a pinch, it will push you to windward at 3 knots when it's rough and blowing 25. That's when we generally try to find someplace interesting downwind! BTW, our 27 is for sale since we bought a 31.

Ann and David Brownlee
CD31 #1 WINDRUSH
Havre de Grace, MD



dbrownle@sas.upenn.edu

[Clay Stalker]

Hi MB,
Some great comments from the folks who responded to you...that is the beauty of this website...it has been a great help to me as I become familiar with my CD27. My two cents worth....I would not be put off at all with the outboard option if you can find a clean CD26. I used to sail a Quickstep 24 with a 9.9 Honda 4-stroke and it worked just fine...never came out of the water, even in heavy winds but can be noisier than the diesel and uses more fuel. The only suggestion I would make is try to get a 4-stroke outboard if possible. They are somewhat heavier, but get much better mileage and are quieter. I comparing the 25D and 26, I would strongly suggest checking them both out closely, as they are totally different down below and you may find a clear preference. I looked at a dozen or so CDs, and liked the 25D a lot but preferred the interior layout of the 26. The 25D is the ultimate solo cruiser boat, but if you have overnight guests, things can get pretty cozy...I ended up with the 27 because I liked it's layout and appearance the best...28 also a great boat but considerably heavier and not that much more space than the 27....so that's my two cents....Have fun looking, and you really can't go wrong unless you buy something besides a CD....

Clay Stalker
s/v SALSA CD27 #247

Hi Listers

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

cstalker@cheshire.net

[Michael Bowden]

Hi Listers,

Just wanted to say thank you for the timely and informative responses.
This is better than my Montgomery list! (Well, there ARE more CDs out there). I will be looking at a CD27 in Wisconsin next weekend and have a line on a 26 in Chicago. Wish me luck.
15 below tonight here in Mpls.

MB

[Bob Malinka]

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

This issue has been debated here on the list before just take a look into the archives. To me the choice is very clear having been sailing on the water all my life. Having been there and done that with outboard and with a diesel it is my opinion for safety considerations that gasoline has no business on a sailboat at sea. I do all my own maintenance having worked as a diesel service manager and crewed as first mate aboard commercial fishing vessels in another life. I have had my fill with gas tanks leaking while at sea not to mention the smell of an outboard and the noise. It has been 10 years since I last owned an outboard but my recollection on the reliability aspect also does not sit well with having an outboard in a sailboat. I remember always having to grease or replace parts because they were corroding from saltwater and replacing motor mounts, water pumps, lower ends because of saltwater leakage into the lower gear unit, and tune ups.

We have the 1GM Yanmar in our CD25D and I would not give it up for the world. Over the years beginning from 1986 since we have had our CD25D it has gotten us through some pretty rough water without so much as a blink. Gone are the cavitation problems when it gets rough and all the other unpleasant things that come with an outboard. For reliability, safety, durability, maneuverability, maintainability and just plan old frugalness on fuel the diesel will be my choice all the time. Our 1GM is rated at a modest 6.5 hp and it is certainly not underpowered for the CD25D. That little one cylinder diesel will push the CD25D to hull speed until it produces a large wake which on our knot meter indicates to be well over 6+ knots. We have motored through inlets that had 4 - 5 knot currents in the company of other much larger yachts 35 to 40+ feet and received comments on how fast our CD25D motored into such a strong current. The 1GM likes to run and will go all day or night on very little fuel. We have made passage offshore from Amityville, NY on the Great South Bay, Long Island through Fire Island Inlet to Block Island, which is over 130 miles nonstop running under power because of the lack of wind and used just 5.5 gallons of diesel fuel. We have a 12 gallon tank on our CD25D and based upon my experiences with this boat it probably could motor clear around Long Island on one tank of fuel. Please keep in mind that Long Island is over 125 miles long. We use our boat quite a bit during the summer and it is very rare that I ever get through more than one tank of fuel for the summer. The problem I have is not using the fuel which goes stale sitting in the tank. To offset this problem I make sure to use cetane boost, fuel store and biocides to keep the tank clean. Correspondingly I also make sure to change fuel filters regularly in accordance with the manufacturers recommended schedule.


Bob
s/v Ranger
CD25D #144
Homeport: Amityville, LI., NY.

[Bob Malinka]

Hi Listers,

I'm considering a CD in the 25D to 27 range as my next boat. Can anyone speak as to the pros and cons of a Yanmar 1GM in the 25D and 27 as opposed to a 10hp outboard in the 26 transom well? The diesel has great fuel mileage, a huge alternator, and lower weight in the hull. However, I read the single cylinder 1GM is taxed pushing the 25, and undersized for the 27. On the 26, the outboard is easily replaced or serviced, but must be a bit inconvienient to use tucked away in it's well, and the prop sits near the waterline.
Also, does having the motor well in the 26 compromise on cockpit size?
I notice the CD25D and 26 are close in displacement, would a 10 hp 4 stroke in the 26 push the boat better than the 1GM in the 25D? I wonder if both boats have about the same sailing caracteristics, given alike sails.

Thanks,

MB

This issue has been debated here on the list before just take a look into the archives. To me the choice is very clear having been sailing on the water all my life. Having been there and done that with outboard and with a diesel it is my opinion for safety considerations that gasoline has no business on a sailboat at sea. I do all my own maintenance having worked as a diesel service manager and crewed as first mate aboard commercial fishing vessels in another life. I have had my fill with gas tanks leaking while at sea not to mention the smell of an outboard and the noise. It has been 10 years since I last owned an outboard but my recollection on the reliability aspect also does not sit well with having an outboard in a sailboat. I remember always having to grease or replace parts because they were corroding from saltwater and replacing motor mounts, water pumps, lower ends because of saltwater leakage into the lower gear unit, and tune ups.

We have the 1GM Yanmar in our CD25D and I would not give it up for the world. Over the years beginning from 1986 since we have had our CD25D it has gotten us through some pretty rough water without so much as a blink. Gone are the cavitation problems when it gets rough and all the other unpleasant things that come with an outboard. For reliability, safety, durability, maneuverability, maintainability and just plan old frugalness on fuel the diesel will be my choice all the time. Our 1GM is rated at a modest 6.5 hp and it is certainly not underpowered for the CD25D. That little one cylinder diesel will push the CD25D to hull speed until it produces a large wake which on our knot meter indicates to be well over 6+ knots. We have motored through inlets that had 4 - 5 knot currents in the company of other much larger yachts 35 to 40+ feet and received comments on how fast our CD25D motored into such a strong current. The 1GM likes to run and will go all day or night on very little fuel. We have made passage offshore from Amityville, NY on the Great South Bay, Long Island through Fire Island Inlet to Block Island, which is over 130 miles nonstop running under power because of the lack of wind and used just 5.5 gallons of diesel fuel. We have a 12 gallon tank on our CD25D and based upon my experiences with this boat it probably could motor clear around Long Island on one tank of fuel. Please keep in mind that Long Island is over 125 miles long. We use our boat quite a bit during the summer and it is very rare that I ever get through more than one tank of fuel for the summer. The problem I have is not using the fuel which goes stale sitting in the tank. To offset this problem I make sure to use cetane boost, fuel store and biocides to keep the tank clean. Correspondingly I also make sure to change fuel filters regularly in accordance with the manufacturers recommended schedule.


Bob
s/v Ranger
CD25D #144
Homeport: Amityville, LI., NY.







ranger1442@hotmail.com