CD 36 sailing properties

[kenL]

For the past 8 years I have owned an Endeavour 32 which I really enjoy which is well fitted out with many new upgrades. I am now looking for a 35-37 foot boat which is an upgrade and slightly larger to spend more extended time on for cruises in the Pacific Northwest and up to Alaska and down to Mexico with blue water capabilities. I am very interested in the CD36 however most forums talk about them as being very wet to sail, and although not necessarily slow, nothing to write home about as far as speed. Also the short water line make them prone to hobby horsing and the larger overhangs make them squirrelly downwind and that they are very small inside. Most of these comments are not by people who have firsthand knowledge of these boats so I would like to hear from CD36 owners about how they sail. I also would like to know how well they sail to windward.

[John Ring]

They sail fine, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzgXAr-6tqE

They are wider than the earlier Alberg boats of similar length (Alberg 35 etc), making them much stiffer & dryer. It takes a lot to bury a rail. The interior isn't as large as a modern race boat with 12' beam, but it's pretty nice inside, again due to the greater beam than his earlier designs. The key to performance with a long keel is a clean bottom and good sails. Like any full keel boat, windward is ok but not great. The ride is very smooth.

Looking at these boats, watch for rusted mild steel engine beds (mine was ready to drop the motor), and worn out pintle (hinge) where the bottom of the rudder sits into the gudgeon glassed into the hull.

John Ring
CD36 #135 TIARA

[John Stone]

I have seen those same posts on sailnet and cruiser forum. You are correct that none of commenters sailed a CD 36, certainly not offshore.

I sailed mine over 3000nm last year. 1,500 mm was mostly upwind, from calm to 15-20 kts with five days of winds over 30 knots. Seas about 10'-15'. No engine the entire way. She sailed great. Upwind they can be wet. I don't have a dodger and have no plans to add one. Off the wind they track like a freight train and are very dry. I'd say many full keel boats fit that description though. I have surfed downwind at over 8-9 knots. They don't pound. I was never concerned about my boat not getting to our destination safely. After I arrived in the BVI I was surprised the number of people I talked to that made the same passage but broke a lot of gear and equipment--a rudder, a mast, one boat tore the entire traveler out of the deck, a broken boom etc. I had no issues. The downwind ride home was magic. I singlehand home about 1,300 NM and had the portllights and deck hatches open the entire trip, except when it rained.

A CD 36 is smaller inside than most modern boats. It's much easier to move across the cabin or fore and aft in a CD 36 than say a Beneteau 37 which is much wider and with less furniture to grab hold of to keep yourself from getting thrown down or slammed across the boat. I would not say there is less storage on a 36 than modern boats. Lots of modern boats have a lot of open space which does not always translate into more storage. However, stock CD 36s don't have a lot of storage either but can have a lot of storage with a few thoughtful mods. Also, unless you add all kinds of stuff to the deck, the narrower beam and lower freeboard translate to less cross section than more contemporary boats of similar size and are less likely to drag at anchor in squalls.

My boats is very fast but I have a taller rig and no propeller aperture so I can't comment on how fast a stock 36 is. I have sailed my boat up through crowded anchorages and narrow channels. We routinely sail out the anchor and anchor under sail. I would offer this though--offshore it just does not make that much difference. When the wind and seas are up offshore you are not going to be sailing a 35 degree angle to the wind and making 7.5 Kts. You are going to be reefed and trying to keep the boat comfortable and the rig protected. I can't really think of another boat I covet of a similar size and for anywhere close to the same price. Lots of boats will do the job you describe but a CD 36 will not fail you under almost any condition that you are likely to encounter. You would have to do something really foolish I think and even then you'd be hard pressed to have a major problem. Plus, Cape Dories are, by almost anyone's standards, a lovely boat visually--at anchor or under sail.

Remember the advice of the old crusader "Choose wisely." Good luck.

[kenL]

John, Thank you for your comments as they are what I expected to hear from the owners of these boats or they would not command the price that they are asking. I hope to sail one sometime so that I can finally make my mind up with this process of boat selection. Thanks, Ken

[John Stone]

Ken
There are two more things I'd be remiss for not mentioning. First, the Cape Dory is a well built boat. It is very strong. I won't say more than that as much has been written about the build quality. Yes, they have some secrets (all boats do) that I have had to say to myself sometimes, "what were they thinking?" But, these areas are well known and the Cape Dory owners have tackled all these issues at one time or another. I am confident in saying you can't come across an issue or potential repair that has not been discussed ad naseum in the forum. So, you are never alone when faced with a problem you might be unsure how to address. Second, you also can't find a more helpful, polite, or optimistic group of sailors to interact with either in person or through the forum. If you are planning on doing any work to your boat the forum will be a very valuable resource.

John

[Bill Goldsmith]

Ken
Second, you also can't find a more helpful, polite, or optimistic group of sailors to interact with either in person or through the forum. If you are planning on doing any work to your boat the forum will be a very valuable resource.

John

That part of John's post has been true for the many years of this forum. The value of this forum helped me decide to locate and by a Cape Dory eighteen years ago.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Ken
Second, you also can't find a more helpful, polite, or optimistic group of sailors to interact with either in person or through the forum. If you are planning on doing any work to your boat the forum will be a very valuable resource.
John

That part of John's post has been true for the many years of this forum. The value of this forum helped me decide to locate and by a Cape Dory eighteen years ago.

I agree 110% with both John S. and Bill G. If not for this board I would be lost. It is about 80% of the reason I acquired both my Typhoon Weekender and my CD 25D. Truth. In confession, I must admit 15% goes to the comedic relief offered by PC Gordon and others of his "ilk".

[Jim Walsh]

Ken
Second, you also can't find a more helpful, polite, or optimistic group of sailors to interact with either in person or through the forum. If you are planning on doing any work to your boat the forum will be a very valuable resource.
John

That part of John's post has been true for the many years of this forum. The value of this forum helped me decide to locate and by a Cape Dory eighteen years ago.

I agree 110% with both John S. and Bill G. If not for this board I would be lost. It is about 80% of the reason I acquired both my Typhoon Weekender and my CD 25D. Truth. In confession, I must admit 15% goes to the comedic relief offered by PC Gordon and others of his "ilk".

By PC Roberto is referring to "past commodore", not "politically correct".

[mgphl52]

By PC Roberto is referring to "past commodore", not "politically correct".

Wow!
Thanks, Jim!
I thought he was talking about "petty critics"...

[kenL]

Thank you all for your comments. One more question - I have been sailing for over thirty years but only remember sailing on a full keel boat twice and don't remember the significant difference between them and the other boats which I had sailed on. Apart from probably having a longer turning radius in the marina what differences are there in the performance. Ken

[Sea Hunt Video]

Ken:

When backing out of a slip your full keel Cape Dory will go in whatever direction she has a mind to go, regardless of your efforts on the wheel, etc. Cape Dory sailboats are notorious for having a mind of their own when in reverse. It is both charming and confounding.

[David van den Burgh]

... Apart from probably having a longer turning radius in the marina...

Not exactly. Back and fill. The boat will turn around in her own length with a little prop walk and blasts of forward with the rudder hard over.

A full keel means more wetted surface so potentially more drag than a fin-keeled boat, but it provides more lateral resistance, which generally translates to better tracking and less leeway - and a better motion at sea. A full-keeled boat won't point as high as a fin-keeled boat with a spade rudder (although Ariel ain't no slouch with newer sails. In fact, she out sailed a Jeanneau 37 on a light-wind day, sailing both higher and faster). Full keel boats tend to have protected props and rudders that are attached to the hull at more than one point, improving strength. A full keel is generally of shallower draft, enabling you to get into skinnier water. Since the ballast is molded into the hull, you don't have to worry about keel bolts or losing your ballast. The underwater shape of the full-keel boat minimizes the chances of a grounding doing as much damage as it might to a fin-keeled boat, since the boat tends to ride up rather than "trip," levering the aft end of the keel up into the hull and pulling the leading edge down.

[John Stone]

Ken,
I have sailed on both. Full keel (and heavier displacement length ratio boats) tend to have a less frenetic motion. A little less "jerk" if you will. They tend to have a little less yaw. Their motion is generally less fatiguing than the lighter fin keeler.

The keels on full keeled boats are less aerodynamic in shape and thus tend to have a little less lift which means they are less close winded. My boat is close winded enough on smooth water. She is not a J105 but she surprises me all the time at how close winded she is and how easily she tacks. Full keel boats, as a rule, point pretry well on smooth water though not as close as fin keel boats. But off shore, they are closer in performance. That's because it's difficult to sail very close to the wind when the waves get bigger. Fin keeled boats, which tend to be lighter and also tend to be flatter bottomed (though not always) begin to pound and the more violent motion can be hard on the boat, the rig, and the crew. The skipper will, naturally tend to foot off to reduce the motion so it's advantage over the fuller keeled boat is not so great. These are up wind characteristics. Off the wind, I don't think the fin keeler has any advantage. In fact the full keeler can be much more comfortable and because it tends to yaw less and thus autopilots and windvanes have an easier job. Flatter bottom fin keels are often able to surf off the wind but it is not common to do when short handed, especially at night. Fin keel boats can more easily broach if not we'll handled or poorly designed.

The biggest disadvantage I can think of for the full keel boat is its inability to be steered in reverse. This can be a real problem in a marina. There are some techniques one can use but they simply can't overcome this disadvantage entirely

These are just comments in general. There are good and bad designs in both camps. I think moderation is important for either boat design.

It's an endless debate. Find a reputably built boat, well maintained, with a moderate design, that has the room you need, sails well enough, and is beautiful to look at. It would be hard to go wrong if you follow those basic criteria.

[kenL]

John, My Endeavour sails and motors and backs almost identically to the Cape Dories that you have described. It's got a shallower draft of 4'-3" and the keel is long however not full with a DLR of 305 so it needs to be reefed early. I can live with the Backing up problem to enjoy the other benefits and the aesthetic charm of the design. Thanks for your help.

[Paul D.]

I love all the factors and the thought that goes into purchasing a sailboat and find I place myself at the nexus of people's decision s often. I try hard to play a helpful role because others did to me when I was in that process.

Having owned two Alberg sailboats and with a brother in our same marina heavily using his CD 36, I think I could add a couple thoughts on the sailing qualities of the Alberg type.

Oftentimes Cape Dories are described as many other full keel type boats. They will sail faster and point higher than most full keel boats, their keels are actually 'modified' or cutaway full keel and Alberg's MO was to give them enough sail area to move their generally narrower hulls. I sailed across the Tasman on an Atkins Ingrid and the Puget Sound on a Westsail and it would not be fair to group the Alberg boats in the same sailing category.

It is true that well cut sails, a maintained bottom and some thoughtful attention to trim will keep these boats moving in lighter air, better than expected by most. If you find yourself only sailing in light air that may favor other boats but Cape Dories have more slippery hulls than most recognize. When the wind pipes up, as it did to over 35 knots this time last year on a solo sail, I never felt worried or scared, just reefed down and sloughed on. One guy in our marina called it 'Cape Dory weather', which I have to admit warmed my heart.

Having not sailed an E32 but from many days sailing aboard another Ted Irwin designed 38 footer in an instructing role, I think you would find the CD performance, as far as speed, pointing ability and leeway (especially if the 32 has the shoal keel), a little better than the 32. The sailing 'feel' though will be different, and hard to describe - a heavier boat that takes a moment to accelerate, punches through the waves with a bit more momentum and a helm that's responsive but not in desperate need of micromanagement.

I think you would quickly get used to her ways, except when backing out of the slip...