ZF-10-M-R transmission problems continue, request for advice

[jen1722terry]

I thought I'd repost this as a new thread so everyone sees it.

Well, it appears our almost brand new (100 hours) ZF-10-M-R transmission is dead, due to the very suspect dark fluid at the most recent fund change.

We're sad and disgusted with this model of tranny, as is another of our friends over in Nova Scotia who replaced two of these within 5 months. Something's wrong with these trannys.

We're making a warranty claim but may just take the new unit and sell it if we can't get our money back. It's time for something else. It may just be that these smaller ZF's are fine for most owners who put a few dozen hours on it each season, but not fit for long-term cruisers who can put 200+ hours on each year.

So, has anyone installed a new Beta transmission also know as the Stanley Techno-Drive TMC-40 which is also known as the Twin-Disc MG-340 in a CD 31? We know fit is an issue so we're hoping to find another owner who has installed one of these. We know Jim Walsh has installed a new Beta engine/tranny in his 31, but just replacing the tranny may be more problematic.

Any advice or thoughts would be most welcome.

And if any of you are near Northeast Harbor, ME in the next few weeks, we'll be here trying to get this problem solved. Stop on over. Email us, as our cell phone doesn't work here.

Jenn and Terry

[David van den Burgh]

Jenn and Terry,

I think a good place to start - at least until you get someone chiming in with experience - is to get the technical drawings for both your current gear and the prospective TMC gear. Comparing dimensions will probably give you a pretty good idea of where you're likely to run into issues, if any.

Have you talked to Stanley yet at BetaMarine NC? If not, you definitely should.

Keep us posted. I wish I'd had more time this summer to make the TMC fit Ariel.

David

[JWSutcliffe]

How confident are you of the alignment? Operating time per year vs. total time used. This transmission should not fail so soon if it is not overloaded. Misalignment is a far greater contributor to overload and thus failure than use time. Also, what rpm do you run at?

[jen1722terry]

Thanks Skip and Dave,

WE just had the ZF service rep here today on the boat to check everything over. He agrees with the other two mechanics that the installation is correct and properly aligned. He also was impressed with our care in proper filling, explaining the risks of over-filling.
After only 9 hours since the last fluid change the fluid was again darker and cloudier and had a burnt smell as well. Big mystery.

They took a fluid sample and sent it into the lab. More delays but we have the time. Off to Canada tomorrow to pick up our car.

We will print the drawings for the Beta and compare them to the ZF drawings. A few of the Beta vendors advertise that the new TMC-40 is an exact fit, but it is good advice to check it ourselves.

We'll let you know what happens. Big mystery.

Happy Sailing!

Jenn and Terry

[Jim Walsh]

Jenn and Terry, you have my sympathy regarding your transmission issues. I've been dealing with transmission issues myself. When I bought Orion in 12/06 I knew there were engine issues. It needed a top end rebuild at a minimum. I had no intention of engaging in a rebuild of an engine for which I had no maintenance history. I chose to repower with a Universal M-25XPB. It had the standard ZF5-M transmission. I never had a moments trouble for nine years. On 7/22 I was returning to my slip from a short cruise. My intention was to prepare to leave for the CDSOA Maine Cruise in a couple days......that is until I put my transmission into reverse and discovered I had none.....dammit.
I still had forward and neutral so I just rentered my slip while being acutely aware of my limitations. I checked out all the things that I hoped had gone wrong like a loose throttle cable or something jammed near the attachment point to no avail. Due to the after effects of a car accident I knew it made sense to let the yards mechanic do the honors of removal and reinstallation. Could I have done it, yup, am I glad I let the mechanic do the job, an emphatic yup.
The water lift muffler and "mild steel" bracket had to be removed, along with the heat exchanger. That gave me the opportunity to get the bracket home, knock the rust off it, apply rust killer, and several coats of tractor paint. It looks better than new. I replaced the zinc in the heat exchanger and most of the hoses since access was now much improved.
The ZF transmission went to a rebuild shop the yard trusts and three weeks to the day it was dropped off I had the rebuilt transmission back in my possession. I asked my mechanic and the rebuild pro's if I was wasting my money on a rebuild and should I replace it with a new unit. They both insisted that the ZF's were dependable and well worth the rebuild.
It is now in place and I just put an hour of run time on it. Seems fine. I hope I can say the same for several years.
Just as advice to those in the process, while everything is opened up you may want to do as I chose to do and replace all the cables, throttle, shift, and stop. Mine were the originals, 32 years old. Man, do the new cables feel sweet. Should have done that when the engine was replaced.
One other tip. If you have a Universal engine, some, not all, have a 80 micron in-line fuel filter hiding in the back of the engine. It is not on the diagrams and it has no part number. My mechanic has encountered them before and the factory techs advise it just be ignored. My mechanic has had two instances where they were blocked and stopped fuel from feeding. He advised, and I agreed, to permanently remove it. I have a primary and a secondary fuel filter which both have spin-on elements. One is a water separator also. I no longer have a phantom filter hiding in back of the engine waiting to ruin my day.
I guess I was lucky in that my transmission was removed while the boat remained in the water and the engine stayed in place. When the shaft coupling was unbolted the bellows for my PSS shaft seal was pushed back an inch and that provided just enough room to remove the transmission. It did have to be turned upside down to get it out, but the fluid filler is tight so no fluid was lost. The fluid was perfect, by the way.
It is so nice to be back in operating order. Four weeks without sailing was tough to take.

[jen1722terry]

Thanks for the detailed account of your new tranny, Jim.

I'll check tomorrow for that little fuel filter. I had the engine out last summer and did not see it, nor did our mechanic mention it. It was probably removed in 2011 when the PO had the head reconditioned and shaft replaced.

Still waiting on ZF's response on our sad little ZF-10-M-R. We're leaning toward a refund (if they'll do it, probably not) or take the new one and sell it. We've done a bit more research on the TMC-40 and it appears not to be an "exact swap." A few of the measurements are a bit different but we have the details from the local Beta dealer, so we plan to drive over to Southwest Harbor on Thursday to talk it over with the local diesel mechanic who seems to have the best rep of the several in the area.

It may be that other ZF models are fine, but this 10-M-R has been a real disappointment for us and some of our friends.

We will heed your advice and get some other things updated while the engine is out, including new cables fuel pump and alternator, which we have, moving the HX, inspecting all hoses, wiring etc. and painting the engine. Should be a busy week.

Enjoy your new tranny, and all the joys of September sailing. We may see you over the winter.

Jenn and Terry

[mgphl52]

Reading these trials & tribulations really makes me appreciate my Volvo MSB more and more!
I sure hope you folks get some decent satisfaction from the company.

[Jim Walsh]

Thanks for the detailed account of your new tranny, Jim.

I'll check tomorrow for that little fuel filter. I had the engine out last summer and did not see it, nor did our mechanic mention it. It was probably removed in 2011 when the PO had the head reconditioned and shaft replaced.

Here's a picture I took of the "phantom" fuel filter. The only identifying marks on it are "80 M". The photo may make it easier to identify visually since it does not appear on any engine diagram.

[jen1722terry]

Weird looking little thing, Jim. I'll check again tomorrow to be sure it's not still on our mill.

Thanks again for the photo

Jenn and Terry

[jen1722terry]

UPDATE:

While waiting for the ZF headquarters to get the results of our tranny fluid sample, we looked into the TMC-40 Beta unit as a possible replacement. It's not an easy swap, without replacing the engine also, but we found a good mechanic willing to do it, but not until October. So we started to consider hauling early and covering the boat and looking forward to 2017 with a new TMC-40.

This morning we got a call from the ZF HQ tech rep. They were worried that the fluid analysis was taking too long and they decided to replace our bad ZF-10 with a brand new one, all parts and labor to be paid by the company and, get this, they will do it this week!

So, we thought it over. We're very suspect of the recent ZF-10s, but the new installation would be a total freebie. So we decided to give ZF one more chance with the proviso that they tell us what they found wrong with our almost new (less than 100 hours) unit. They agreed, so we'll let all of you know when we get the results of their tear-down and inspection of our old unit.

Assuming all goes well this week, we should be out sailing this fabulous Maine mid coast by late next week, after a trip over to our NH condo to check on things and get in a bit of glorious September hiking,

We'll keep y'all posted. Thanks to all of you for the support.

BTW: we hooked up with Cheryl and Steve for cocktails last night here in Northeast Harbor. Their CD 31 "Evergreen" is one lovely boat and a model for what we want ours to be with a few more years of improvement.

Jenn and Terry

[David van den Burgh]

I'm intrigued by the lab analysis. I sent an oil sample off to Blackstone Laboratories a few years ago. I think I'll send the ATF from the ZF 12M in for analysis if the fluid looks funny at the 50hr change.

Good luck with your tranny woes!

[Jim Walsh]

Good luck folks. Hope to hear an update by the end of the week. I'll keep my fingers crossed. So far my rebuild seems to be performing flawlessly.

[jen1722terry]

Hey Sailors!

Hey neighbors!

We're sitting here in the saloon watching/helping the mechanic reinstall the engine and new tranny. He would have done it yesterday, but when he removed the bell housing, he noted wear to four of the six springs on the damper plate. There also seemed to be a bit of play in the splined fitting. These seemed odd, for our mechanic inspected the damper plate last August and said it looked fine when he was installing the tranny we're replacing today. We believe the old damper plate was installed in October, 2012 by the prior owner and had low hours on it (less than 200).

So, the mystery is, what caused the damper plate to wear so quickly between the inspection of it last August and now? The ZF company wants the damper plate for inspection so we took closeup photos of it. The wear seems to be on one end of four of the springs. On one spring, the spring had worn almost through on the end coil.

Anyhow, hope to be seaworthy later today. Unfortunately, we can't sail for a week, as we have to return to our New Hamphire home tomorrow for some business and to be there should that storm dump some serious rain. We have and old-but-sturdy dam on the property that our senior resident worries over. It's solid block granite, so we doubt it's going anywhere but it would be nice to sit with the neighbor as the storm passes.

All else well here in beautiful NE Harbor.

Jenn and Terry