Raven has been pooped twice in short succession. It was in a tidal race with following seas and the wake just piled up and came right into the cockpit. She was sailing pretty flat so there was no heel to help reduce the amount of water we took on. She does have a bridge deck so that might be a consideration. I do not remember it taking a very long time to drain. I am sure someone could do the calculations. I would be interested to hear from anyone else who has ever been pooped in one of our boats. I just don't think it happens very often.
That said I don't think I would be cutting up my boat and adding more holes to address a problem that doesn't really exist. Installing solid glass tubes with no flex points between the cockpit sole and the hull is just asking for trouble. Installing it in a place with nearly impossible access and without a seacock seems to be approaching insanity. I know there are great examples of sport boats with lots of drainage and even open transoms. I just don't want water sloshing around in the foot well all the time or to risk popping a plug or breaking a drain tube. If you do keep the drains plugged until the need arises, I can pretty much guarantee that you will not be in a great position to pull the plugs when the cockpit is full of water and the threat that created the situation is still looming large.
If you truly feel that the original designer did not adequately address the possibility of your boat being pooped with hull and cockpit design as well as the size of the drains I don't think you are looking at a proper solution. Adding a bridge deck, even a temporary one, in the form of a well secured box would address much of your concern. You could just secure your first couple of drop boards if you thought there might be a threat of being pooped. If you do feel the need for additional drainage then why not just go to larger cockpit drains in the original location and with proper seacocks and flexible hoses? Even if you eliminated the seaocks and just kept softwood plugs at the through hull fitting, you would at least be able to get at them if something went wrong.
Hard connections from the cockpit sole to the place where all the water lives just don't seem like a very good idea, Steve.
CD-33 cockpit sole question
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Steve Laume
- Posts: 4127
- Joined: Feb 13th, '05, 20:40
- Location: Raven1984 Cape Dory 30C Hull #309Noank, CT
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Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
Steve, I appreciate your feedback. I sometimes post ideas to see their reflection through the thoughts of others.
Am I addressing a real problem?
It would be great if someone would fill their cockpit to test the drain time while afloat.
I have never been on a boat when the cockpit has been flooded, but I have never experienced extreme conditions.
My cockpit is a bit larger than 6 ft x 2 ft, so let's assume that with 2 ft of water there will be 24 ft3 or 180 gallons (~1,500 lbs).
With bends and turns, I'll make a conservative estimate that each scupper can handle 1000 gallons/hour for a total of 2000 gallons/hour.
( 180 gal / 2000 gal/hr ) * 60 min/hr = 5.4 minutes
Solid glass tubes with no flex points?
Solid glass tubes are installed all the time for bow thrusters. A Vetus tube with an inside diameter of 4 11/32" has a wall diameter of just 13/64".
An FRP tube with a 3" outside diameter and a 2" inside diameter is incredibly strong, with a minimum compressive strength of 54,950 lbs and a minimal flexural strength of 39,250 lbs!
Any weakness will always be in the installation and not the tube itself. Having mucked around with FRP, G10, closed cell foam, fiberglass and epoxy for a few years now, I have a lot of ideas on how to distribute the load and create a strong joint.
As someone who only has three below water thru holes left in the boat, I don't take making holes in the bottom lightly.
I do believe that this is something that can be done with equal or greater strength than the hull itself.
Am I addressing a real problem?
It would be great if someone would fill their cockpit to test the drain time while afloat.
I have never been on a boat when the cockpit has been flooded, but I have never experienced extreme conditions.
My cockpit is a bit larger than 6 ft x 2 ft, so let's assume that with 2 ft of water there will be 24 ft3 or 180 gallons (~1,500 lbs).
With bends and turns, I'll make a conservative estimate that each scupper can handle 1000 gallons/hour for a total of 2000 gallons/hour.
( 180 gal / 2000 gal/hr ) * 60 min/hr = 5.4 minutes
Solid glass tubes with no flex points?
Solid glass tubes are installed all the time for bow thrusters. A Vetus tube with an inside diameter of 4 11/32" has a wall diameter of just 13/64".
An FRP tube with a 3" outside diameter and a 2" inside diameter is incredibly strong, with a minimum compressive strength of 54,950 lbs and a minimal flexural strength of 39,250 lbs!
Any weakness will always be in the installation and not the tube itself. Having mucked around with FRP, G10, closed cell foam, fiberglass and epoxy for a few years now, I have a lot of ideas on how to distribute the load and create a strong joint.
As someone who only has three below water thru holes left in the boat, I don't take making holes in the bottom lightly.
I do believe that this is something that can be done with equal or greater strength than the hull itself.
Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
On 7/1/15 during my return trip from Bermuda (I was 202nm from Noank) I entered a very strong storm system which increased from 18 knots to a steady 45knots with gusts in the low fifties. The seas were 18 to 20 and breaking, but not wildly breaking. After reducing sail down to a scrap of my Yankee I decided I was safer below and let the wind vane brave the elements. I was taking a lot of flying spray and I could see and hear waves breaking. Some were close and a few really whacked the hull but each was taken in stride. Nothing slowed my forward progress and there was no "shuddering". I did have a wave break right beside me while I was in my berth protected by my leecloth. It both felt and sounded much larger than the rest. It broke right beside me and tossed what I estimated to be 25 or 30 gallons of water in my cockpit. I got up and took a peek to ensure I hadn't suffered any damage and there was at least 20 gallons sloshing around but the drains were noisily doing their job and it never made it below. It's nice having a substantial bridge deck and a robustly built boat in these conditions. The cockpit was emptied in a few minutes and the remainder of this weather event was routine. After several hours it went back down to the mid 30's but the seas were very substantial the following morning though the wind was back down to the 20's. It takes a while for the energy in the waves to dissipate.Steve Laume wrote: I would be interested to hear from anyone else who has ever been pooped in one of our boats.
I think our cockpit drains are adequate, not undersized, just good enough. I would have preferred commercial "freeing ports" at that moment but it's just not realistic. The open stern cockpits of the "modern" designs are great for freeing the cockpit of water but there's no way I'd feel comfortable offshore with nothing between me and the deep blue sea. We have very sea worthy cruisers. We can certainly make improvements here and there but the basic design and construction of our vessels make them outstanding offshore capable cruisers.
Jim Walsh
Ex Vice Commodore
Ex Captain-Northeast Fleet
CD31 ORION
The currency of life is not money, it's time
Ex Vice Commodore
Ex Captain-Northeast Fleet
CD31 ORION
The currency of life is not money, it's time
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John Stone
- Posts: 3623
- Joined: Oct 6th, '08, 07:30
- Location: S/V Far Reach: CD 36 #61 www.farreachvoayges.net www.farreachvoyages.com
Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
Vincent,
My apologies for thread drift from your original post. I got caught up in the scupper discussion. I'll make one more comment and bow out. I'd be interested to know what you decide and what hatch you go with.
Jonathan,
Steve makes some good points. But the best one is why are you making the mod? How do you intend to use your boat where getting pooped is a possibility? More on that in a second.
I think if you use backing plates large enough to adequately spread the compression load of the tube on the hull and the cockpit you'll be fine. After all, the plywood tabbed to the bottom of the cockpit and the hull does essentially the same thing. If you make large strong epoxy fillets and appropriate biaxial tape you'll be fine. I've seen pictures of your fiberglass work and it looks very good.
The bigger question is the why. I think for costal sailing it is unlikely you will get pooped, especially by succeeding waves. The issue getting pooped is not so much that the stern will be driven under its that you loose maneuverability and steering and can be broached by big following seas.
We were never pooped during our passage this winter to the West Indies. That was one benefit of all that upwind sailing. We did, however, get the top of a wave dumped into our cockpit after it slapped against the hull while close reaching along in 30 knots of wind and 10-14' seas. I estimate we got 50'ish gallons of water in the cockpit well. The first thing I thought, and I was in the cockpit at the time, was "how long will it take for this to drain." The answer? Not long. I estimate it took a minute to maybe a minute and a half. But, I'm just guessing. I agree with Jim Welsh, I'd like to have more drains but the ones in the Far Reach seem to do the job. That's not to say you should not make the mod. I glassed the underside of our bridge deck, added tabbing to a number of bulkheads then drilled through the tabbing and bulkheads and installed a whole series of 1/4" bolts and locking nuts. I also glassed around the entire underside of the cockpit sole to the plywood bulkheads that support it.
I do think the bridge deck is important but you can address that shortfall by making sure the bottom couple of drop boards are locked in place. Or you could build a bridge deck. Down flooding is a serious issue and can be catastrophic. Down flooding is what sank the magnificent Pride of Baltimore in the late 1980s when she suffered a knockdown in a white squall in the Atlantic south of Bermuda. So do make sure you have a way to keep water that makes it into the cockpit water from finding its way into the interior of the boat. In fact, on the Far Reach, even with the bridge deck, we install a drop board for every reef we take in the mainsail.
You can also reduce the cockpit volumn by installing a large bolt down fiberglass box in the cockpit. Then, you would have a place to store fenders, dock lines, water cans or whatever. You can unbolt it at a later time returning the cockpit to its original configuration if so desired.
All that said, I'm the last guy to tell you not to make a mod you think important to your Cape Dory. When you are offshore it's your ass hanging out there and no one else's. You need to be confident in your boat when you are trying to sleep and the sea is running. What one person thinks is unnecessary, another views as essential. As long as you know why you are doing it, plan the project accordingly, and have the skills to complete the project in a professional manner I think you'll be fine.
My apologies for thread drift from your original post. I got caught up in the scupper discussion. I'll make one more comment and bow out. I'd be interested to know what you decide and what hatch you go with.
Jonathan,
Steve makes some good points. But the best one is why are you making the mod? How do you intend to use your boat where getting pooped is a possibility? More on that in a second.
I think if you use backing plates large enough to adequately spread the compression load of the tube on the hull and the cockpit you'll be fine. After all, the plywood tabbed to the bottom of the cockpit and the hull does essentially the same thing. If you make large strong epoxy fillets and appropriate biaxial tape you'll be fine. I've seen pictures of your fiberglass work and it looks very good.
The bigger question is the why. I think for costal sailing it is unlikely you will get pooped, especially by succeeding waves. The issue getting pooped is not so much that the stern will be driven under its that you loose maneuverability and steering and can be broached by big following seas.
We were never pooped during our passage this winter to the West Indies. That was one benefit of all that upwind sailing. We did, however, get the top of a wave dumped into our cockpit after it slapped against the hull while close reaching along in 30 knots of wind and 10-14' seas. I estimate we got 50'ish gallons of water in the cockpit well. The first thing I thought, and I was in the cockpit at the time, was "how long will it take for this to drain." The answer? Not long. I estimate it took a minute to maybe a minute and a half. But, I'm just guessing. I agree with Jim Welsh, I'd like to have more drains but the ones in the Far Reach seem to do the job. That's not to say you should not make the mod. I glassed the underside of our bridge deck, added tabbing to a number of bulkheads then drilled through the tabbing and bulkheads and installed a whole series of 1/4" bolts and locking nuts. I also glassed around the entire underside of the cockpit sole to the plywood bulkheads that support it.
I do think the bridge deck is important but you can address that shortfall by making sure the bottom couple of drop boards are locked in place. Or you could build a bridge deck. Down flooding is a serious issue and can be catastrophic. Down flooding is what sank the magnificent Pride of Baltimore in the late 1980s when she suffered a knockdown in a white squall in the Atlantic south of Bermuda. So do make sure you have a way to keep water that makes it into the cockpit water from finding its way into the interior of the boat. In fact, on the Far Reach, even with the bridge deck, we install a drop board for every reef we take in the mainsail.
You can also reduce the cockpit volumn by installing a large bolt down fiberglass box in the cockpit. Then, you would have a place to store fenders, dock lines, water cans or whatever. You can unbolt it at a later time returning the cockpit to its original configuration if so desired.
All that said, I'm the last guy to tell you not to make a mod you think important to your Cape Dory. When you are offshore it's your ass hanging out there and no one else's. You need to be confident in your boat when you are trying to sleep and the sea is running. What one person thinks is unnecessary, another views as essential. As long as you know why you are doing it, plan the project accordingly, and have the skills to complete the project in a professional manner I think you'll be fine.
Last edited by John Stone on Apr 4th, '16, 12:46, edited 3 times in total.
Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
John, Steve always makes good points and I value his posts as I do yours.
The short answer is that I would prepare the boat for the sailing of my imagination, not necessarily for the sailing that I will likely do.
Illogical sure, but so is leaving the comforts of home for the hardships of a small boat on an uncaring sea.
This is a relatively small and easy project and one that I may not get around to for a while, if ever.
It was never intended as an alternative to building a deck-bridge, but as a supplement.
Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned any of this, but I do appreciate all the feedback and it has given me much to think about.
The short answer is that I would prepare the boat for the sailing of my imagination, not necessarily for the sailing that I will likely do.
Illogical sure, but so is leaving the comforts of home for the hardships of a small boat on an uncaring sea.
This is a relatively small and easy project and one that I may not get around to for a while, if ever.
It was never intended as an alternative to building a deck-bridge, but as a supplement.
Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned any of this, but I do appreciate all the feedback and it has given me much to think about.
-
John Stone
- Posts: 3623
- Joined: Oct 6th, '08, 07:30
- Location: S/V Far Reach: CD 36 #61 www.farreachvoayges.net www.farreachvoyages.com
Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
Jonathan
We all learn something on every post--at least we should. I enjoy the mental challenge of thinking about the different projects folks are working on. Working on our boats can be half the fun of owning them. Best of luck. I'd be curious to know what you ultimately decide.
Best,
John
We all learn something on every post--at least we should. I enjoy the mental challenge of thinking about the different projects folks are working on. Working on our boats can be half the fun of owning them. Best of luck. I'd be curious to know what you ultimately decide.
Best,
John
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Astronomertoo
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Nov 24th, '11, 08:53
- Location: 1975 CD25 239 Moon Shine
Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
Hello all,
I read all the above with interest and agree on most everything conservative. Having my old style CD 25 project boat with a too-low entrance to the companionway in in my shed, and intending to do serious glass and epoxy work on it, I had already deciced to add the sealed box in front of the companionway like the newer CDs were made. This is partly because I must increase the size of the old 3/4 inch scuppers to a sensible 1.5 inch, which takes me to a very difficul area to access in the smaller boat cockpit. I envy those of you with storage lockers you can climb inside! I have other things to do along with changing out the valves, and can not get to the existing trashy hoses, so I will do both changes at the same time, including moving the scuppers aft behind a new step over deck. I used to work at sea, and have spent serious time crossing the gulf stream between east Florida and the Bahamas in a 125 ft research vessel, and I do not intend to do those occasionally scary trips in my own little boat. I know my limits. But having run the Ft Pierce inlet in foul weather and opposing tides and winds, and photographed a few brouches out there in the tidal races, I do not intend to subject me and my little boat to that kind of punishment. However I still prefer a better prepared boat for the "what ifs." I also like the idea of the smaller Bomar aluminum hatch in the remaining floor for access to those new scupper valves, and aft bilge pump pickup, which are not accessable otherwise.
Best wishes,
Bob C
Moon Shine
I read all the above with interest and agree on most everything conservative. Having my old style CD 25 project boat with a too-low entrance to the companionway in in my shed, and intending to do serious glass and epoxy work on it, I had already deciced to add the sealed box in front of the companionway like the newer CDs were made. This is partly because I must increase the size of the old 3/4 inch scuppers to a sensible 1.5 inch, which takes me to a very difficul area to access in the smaller boat cockpit. I envy those of you with storage lockers you can climb inside! I have other things to do along with changing out the valves, and can not get to the existing trashy hoses, so I will do both changes at the same time, including moving the scuppers aft behind a new step over deck. I used to work at sea, and have spent serious time crossing the gulf stream between east Florida and the Bahamas in a 125 ft research vessel, and I do not intend to do those occasionally scary trips in my own little boat. I know my limits. But having run the Ft Pierce inlet in foul weather and opposing tides and winds, and photographed a few brouches out there in the tidal races, I do not intend to subject me and my little boat to that kind of punishment. However I still prefer a better prepared boat for the "what ifs." I also like the idea of the smaller Bomar aluminum hatch in the remaining floor for access to those new scupper valves, and aft bilge pump pickup, which are not accessable otherwise.
Best wishes,
Bob C
Moon Shine
BobC
Citrus Springs, Florida
Citrus Springs, Florida
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Steve Laume
- Posts: 4127
- Joined: Feb 13th, '05, 20:40
- Location: Raven1984 Cape Dory 30C Hull #309Noank, CT
- Contact:
Re: CD-33 cockpit sole question
I am sorry if I came across a bit harsh. I was never one to withhold an opinion but it is just that and only my own. I some times struggle with this type of format. Thank you for being gracious enough to be respectful even when you might have taken offense. I did not mean to be mean.
I am sure you could engineer and build some big drains in the aft end of the cockpit that would take away water, very quickly, once you pulled the plugs. The question to ask is if the potential problem warrants the effort. If you filled the foot well to the brim, it would be like having 6 or 8 good sized guys in there. The differences would be that they would start to go away as soon as they arrived and the weight would all be centered and low in the foot well. In the rare event that you would take some water on board or even fill the well, it would not be catastrophic unless it proceeded down the companion way. Increased drainage would not help with that situation. A bridge deck or some drop boards would eliminate this threat.
We have great boats that just don't seem to end up with much water in the cockpit very often, Steve.
I am sure you could engineer and build some big drains in the aft end of the cockpit that would take away water, very quickly, once you pulled the plugs. The question to ask is if the potential problem warrants the effort. If you filled the foot well to the brim, it would be like having 6 or 8 good sized guys in there. The differences would be that they would start to go away as soon as they arrived and the weight would all be centered and low in the foot well. In the rare event that you would take some water on board or even fill the well, it would not be catastrophic unless it proceeded down the companion way. Increased drainage would not help with that situation. A bridge deck or some drop boards would eliminate this threat.
We have great boats that just don't seem to end up with much water in the cockpit very often, Steve.