I would like to change from tiller to wheel steering. There must be a wealth of knowledge out there. Anybody ready to share it with me? Dulcinea is a 1979 CD 28. Thank you.
sepp@mail-pop.dmv.com
wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ron Musk
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
Joe, We have converted from the original Edson worm drive to pedestal unit on our CD30.The worm drive is in good working order and complete.It is available if interested.Joe Wiedemann wrote: I would like to change from tiller to wheel steering. There must be a wealth of knowledge out there. Anybody ready to share it with me? Dulcinea is a 1979 CD 28. Thank you.
RonMusk
s/v"R&R"
CD30
ccerre@massed.net
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Neil Gordon
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
>>I would like to change from tiller to wheel steering.<<
What's the motivation?
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
What's the motivation?
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
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Tom Vanco
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
Personally I much perfer a tiller to a wheel. On on hand a tiller looks very nice on the CD-28. Plus tiller steering is faster and more responce than a wheel. I can lay back in the cockpit and steer with my foot on any point of sail, even with following seas. You CAN NOT do this with a wheel. You have to be in a position to be able to turn the wheel for ALL of those minor rudder corrections. I once had the oppurtunity to help bring a 50' sloop form the British Virgin Islands's to FL. It had a wheel and I never worked so hard in my life. We had 900 miles of following seas and you had to put that wheel through 2 and 1/2 turns for EVERY wave. How I whished for my tiller where I could just sit back in the cockpit and do minor corrections with my foot.Joe Wiedemann wrote: Joe, Why would you want to do this? I also have a CD-28 and she handles very well with the tiller. You can flip it up and out of the way in port or at anchor. Most boats with a wheel in the cockpit were designed for that purpose. If you put a wheel in your cockpit you are going to lose A LOT of space. To put in wheel steering is going to be VERY expensive AND time consuming. It is going to be A LOT of work if it is to be done correctly and aesthetically. Plus you are going to be adding one more link in the "chain" that can fail.
My advice is to think long and hard before you start tearing into your boat to change from a tiller to a wheel.
Tom Vanco
s/v ANNIE
ktvanco@juno.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
Lets be fair here. If you could steer your boat with a tiller, using only your foot while lounging back and taking it easy, then you were moving the tiller end through what, maybe 1 ft. of movement maximum? The same amount of rudder movement with my CD30 steered with a wheel would be about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn..also easily and often done with my toes, while lounging back and relaxing. So far..the same.
Now if you are talking about rough conditions, where the boat is suffering through gusts and waves, then you will have the same weather helm as the wheel steered boat, all else being equal. In that case, the wheel has a large mechanical advantage. Where you will be hanging onto the tiller with two hands, until the sails can be adjusted for less weather helm, the wheel will have a moderate amount of back pressure on it, which is easily handled with one hand, or a small amount of wheel lock applied. Now when you were going downwind for those 800 miles, and were chasing that wheel stop to stop, that would indeed be irritating. It sounds like the steering ratio was set with the wrong ratio, so that it took too many turns to get from stop to stop. Fin keelers are not all that good surfing down wave fronts, as the rudder is easily stalled or exposed to air/ foam which stalls it out. Full keelers are better, in that the whole keel tracks through the water, so if a part of the keel is exposed to foam or air, it's no big deal..she'll track with no loss of direction. It's a lot less squirrely.
So don't judge all wheel steered boats by that example as it was an extreme situation, and with possibly not the best choice in steering ratios.
No doubt that the tiller is more sensitive to the boats motion and feedback.. but in a 10,000lb. boat, so what? That does count..in dinghys where movement and corrections are much quicker in nature, making slight tweaks of the tiller/sails worth doing. In these larger boats however, the reaction is slower, making only the larger tweaks of the tiller even reacted to. So a sensitive tiller does not get the same payback as in smaller boats.
I sailed a C-Scow for 18 years before getting our CD30 in 1991, and enjoyed thousands of hours of tiller time in that beautiful boat. You also have a good point about being able to fold the tiller back and out of the way when at anchor..much nicer for guests. I do wish we could gain back that room occupied by the wheel, when it is not being used.
The cockpits for the CD30 with tiller or wheel are the same I believe, so there was no adjustement made for the steering option chosen by the buyer, as that would entail a completely different deck mold ($Mega)!
So there are many good reasons for changing from tiller to wheel. It depends on your use , temperment, needs, and experince plus funds available.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
Now if you are talking about rough conditions, where the boat is suffering through gusts and waves, then you will have the same weather helm as the wheel steered boat, all else being equal. In that case, the wheel has a large mechanical advantage. Where you will be hanging onto the tiller with two hands, until the sails can be adjusted for less weather helm, the wheel will have a moderate amount of back pressure on it, which is easily handled with one hand, or a small amount of wheel lock applied. Now when you were going downwind for those 800 miles, and were chasing that wheel stop to stop, that would indeed be irritating. It sounds like the steering ratio was set with the wrong ratio, so that it took too many turns to get from stop to stop. Fin keelers are not all that good surfing down wave fronts, as the rudder is easily stalled or exposed to air/ foam which stalls it out. Full keelers are better, in that the whole keel tracks through the water, so if a part of the keel is exposed to foam or air, it's no big deal..she'll track with no loss of direction. It's a lot less squirrely.
So don't judge all wheel steered boats by that example as it was an extreme situation, and with possibly not the best choice in steering ratios.
No doubt that the tiller is more sensitive to the boats motion and feedback.. but in a 10,000lb. boat, so what? That does count..in dinghys where movement and corrections are much quicker in nature, making slight tweaks of the tiller/sails worth doing. In these larger boats however, the reaction is slower, making only the larger tweaks of the tiller even reacted to. So a sensitive tiller does not get the same payback as in smaller boats.
I sailed a C-Scow for 18 years before getting our CD30 in 1991, and enjoyed thousands of hours of tiller time in that beautiful boat. You also have a good point about being able to fold the tiller back and out of the way when at anchor..much nicer for guests. I do wish we could gain back that room occupied by the wheel, when it is not being used.
The cockpits for the CD30 with tiller or wheel are the same I believe, so there was no adjustement made for the steering option chosen by the buyer, as that would entail a completely different deck mold ($Mega)!
So there are many good reasons for changing from tiller to wheel. It depends on your use , temperment, needs, and experince plus funds available.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Tom Vanco wrote:Personally I much perfer a tiller to a wheel. On on hand a tiller looks very nice on the CD-28. Plus tiller steering is faster and more responce than a wheel. I can lay back in the cockpit and steer with my foot on any point of sail, even with following seas. You CAN NOT do this with a wheel. You have to be in a position to be able to turn the wheel for ALL of those minor rudder corrections. I once had the oppurtunity to help bring a 50' sloop form the British Virgin Islands's to FL. It had a wheel and I never worked so hard in my life. We had 900 miles of following seas and you had to put that wheel through 2 and 1/2 turns for EVERY wave. How I whished for my tiller where I could just sit back in the cockpit and do minor corrections with my foot.Joe Wiedemann wrote: Joe, Why would you want to do this? I also have a CD-28 and she handles very well with the tiller. You can flip it up and out of the way in port or at anchor. Most boats with a wheel in the cockpit were designed for that purpose. If you put a wheel in your cockpit you are going to lose A LOT of space. To put in wheel steering is going to be VERY expensive AND time consuming. It is going to be A LOT of work if it is to be done correctly and aesthetically. Plus you are going to be adding one more link in the "chain" that can fail.
My advice is to think long and hard before you start tearing into your boat to change from a tiller to a wheel.
Tom Vanco
s/v ANNIE
demers@sgi.com
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Joe Wiedemann
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
Thanks Tom and Larry for taking the time to respond. I singelhanded around Delmarva last summer, running all night with 20 knt. winds and good size following seas from the bridge-tunnel to the Delaware Bay. My autopilot could not handle that and I had to handsteer for over 30 hours. Am convinced a wheel/autopilot combination could have done better. Since 90% of my sailing is singlehanded, I need that electronic crew member. Since Dulcinea is a keeper, I am willing to make the investment. Wonder if anybody has made the conversion?
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Larry DeMers
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
I removed and reinstaled mine after rebuilding the cockpit floor (well, the yard did the rebuilding..I did the removals). The installation is fairly modular in concept. That is, you follow Edson's extremely well written directioins for installation (heck, the instructions come on a *heavy* stock paper, for longevity even..these guys are good!), place the wheel where it seems to fit in your case and cut the holes (2), one for the binnacle, and one for the emergency tiller access if that is not already in place or if the tiller head is not available for this purpose.
The exact dimensions between the binnacle and the rudder are not super critical (the distance is bridged by the cables, and they can be any distance within reason), in that there IS a minimum distance, but other than that you should be able to put it anywhere you want. The whole binnacle assembly goes into the hole that you cleverly cut per the instructions, and then you mount the turning sheaves at the outboard edge of the cockpit frame. The only thing that is essential in this whole thing is the sealing of the edge of the hole (s) that you cut
in the cockpit floor, as well as the bolt holes that you drill. The bolt holes should be over drilled, then coated inside with epoxy. Better yet, (ideally) you probably should overdrill the four bolt holes, fill with epoxy, then drill again, to the specified hole size. This will keep those holes from absorbing water (which ruined my cockpit floor by the way).
With the large hole, I would undercut the coring by >1/2 in. after the hole is cut out, and then backfill with epoxy that has been thickened with microballoons to hold it's vertical position. Finish off the epoxy smoothly, and make sure there are no voids here, which would allow any water to penetrate to the coring. Use a good sealant when placing the binnacle down in place..NOT 3m5200!! Try 3M 101, or Lifacaulk products..
So that is all that I can see that would be involved with this modification. While under the cockpit sole, you should take a good look at that rudder stuffing box, and gland. The rubberized black hose that those four hose clamps are around ages and cracks and becomes brittle with age and pollution. This little beauty is the only thing keeping your boat afloat..so change it while working on the boat (we're doing it this summer..rudder and prop shaft logs. Spartan carries the exact repalcement, and it is not expensive).
Lastly, Edson has a great web site and offers their manuals and instructions on line for your entertainment and edification. Take a look and talk with their technical help about your installation if you have speciific questions. I suggest that you get a wheel brake kit option with the binnacle. It is easy to install, and invaluable.
Write if there is anything I can help with...
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Sailing Superior~~
demers@sgi.com
The exact dimensions between the binnacle and the rudder are not super critical (the distance is bridged by the cables, and they can be any distance within reason), in that there IS a minimum distance, but other than that you should be able to put it anywhere you want. The whole binnacle assembly goes into the hole that you cleverly cut per the instructions, and then you mount the turning sheaves at the outboard edge of the cockpit frame. The only thing that is essential in this whole thing is the sealing of the edge of the hole (s) that you cut
in the cockpit floor, as well as the bolt holes that you drill. The bolt holes should be over drilled, then coated inside with epoxy. Better yet, (ideally) you probably should overdrill the four bolt holes, fill with epoxy, then drill again, to the specified hole size. This will keep those holes from absorbing water (which ruined my cockpit floor by the way).
With the large hole, I would undercut the coring by >1/2 in. after the hole is cut out, and then backfill with epoxy that has been thickened with microballoons to hold it's vertical position. Finish off the epoxy smoothly, and make sure there are no voids here, which would allow any water to penetrate to the coring. Use a good sealant when placing the binnacle down in place..NOT 3m5200!! Try 3M 101, or Lifacaulk products..
So that is all that I can see that would be involved with this modification. While under the cockpit sole, you should take a good look at that rudder stuffing box, and gland. The rubberized black hose that those four hose clamps are around ages and cracks and becomes brittle with age and pollution. This little beauty is the only thing keeping your boat afloat..so change it while working on the boat (we're doing it this summer..rudder and prop shaft logs. Spartan carries the exact repalcement, and it is not expensive).
Lastly, Edson has a great web site and offers their manuals and instructions on line for your entertainment and edification. Take a look and talk with their technical help about your installation if you have speciific questions. I suggest that you get a wheel brake kit option with the binnacle. It is easy to install, and invaluable.
Write if there is anything I can help with...
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Sailing Superior~~
Joe Wiedemann wrote: Thanks Tom and Larry for taking the time to respond. I singelhanded around Delmarva last summer, running all night with 20 knt. winds and good size following seas from the bridge-tunnel to the Delaware Bay. My autopilot could not handle that and I had to handsteer for over 30 hours. Am convinced a wheel/autopilot combination could have done better. Since 90% of my sailing is singlehanded, I need that electronic crew member. Since Dulcinea is a keeper, I am willing to make the investment. Wonder if anybody has made the conversion?
demers@sgi.com
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Bill Goldsmith
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
Joe,
To echo Larry's comments, my experience with Edson was wonderful. They have spec sheets available for the CD28 (at least they had one for my 27) with diagrams and basic/optional equipment lists. They will spend time on the phone with you, and one guy I spoke with there was very familiar with Cape Dorys. Definitely get a hold of their info. It helped me greatly in making the right, informed decision.
In my instance, however, the decision was not to do the project, so I have no actual installation experiences to relate. I decided that for my purposes the wheel was not the right choice. I feel that the Edson folks really helped me make that decision and feel good about it.
Bill
goldy@bestweb.net
To echo Larry's comments, my experience with Edson was wonderful. They have spec sheets available for the CD28 (at least they had one for my 27) with diagrams and basic/optional equipment lists. They will spend time on the phone with you, and one guy I spoke with there was very familiar with Cape Dorys. Definitely get a hold of their info. It helped me greatly in making the right, informed decision.
In my instance, however, the decision was not to do the project, so I have no actual installation experiences to relate. I decided that for my purposes the wheel was not the right choice. I feel that the Edson folks really helped me make that decision and feel good about it.
Bill
Joe Wiedemann wrote: I would like to change from tiller to wheel steering. There must be a wealth of knowledge out there. Anybody ready to share it with me? Dulcinea is a 1979 CD 28. Thank you.
goldy@bestweb.net
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len
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
joe
i think you will be disappointed in the ability of any motor-driven auto-pilot to handle the conditions you describe - even the permanently installed hydraulic ones are unlikely to do well - a wind-vane would be more likely to cope -
len
md.frel@nwh.org
i think you will be disappointed in the ability of any motor-driven auto-pilot to handle the conditions you describe - even the permanently installed hydraulic ones are unlikely to do well - a wind-vane would be more likely to cope -
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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Paul Grecay
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
I have a cd 28 and I also wanted to switch to wheel steering. I went back and forth on the issue alot and gathered as much information as possible. I finally opted to keep the tiller and I am very glad I did. I like it...it suits the boat and what really clinched the decision for me was the realization that when at anchor, the tiller cocks back out of the way. That combined with the simplicity and reliability made me realize that an old-fashioned tiller was for me. My motivation for wanting a wheel was the association of wheels with bigger boats...not a good reason. So I kept the tiller and now wonder why I ever wanted to tear the boat up to change it. Besides, my car has wheel steering...the tiller is a welcome change from driving.
Paul
CD 28 Peapod
Lewes, DE
pagrecay@aol.com
Paul
CD 28 Peapod
Lewes, DE
pagrecay@aol.com
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Bob Lund
Re: wheel steering for cd 28 sloop
My CD28 has an Edson wheel. Steers well but the Cockpit is too small for it. Getting around is very awkward.Joe Wiedemann wrote: I would like to change from tiller to wheel steering. There must be a wealth of knowledge out there. Anybody ready to share it with me? Dulcinea is a 1979 CD 28. Thank you.
I like the rack and pinion steering on the CD30. It sits in the rear of the cockpit and is out of the way. It is also an industrial strength bullet proof piece of hardware.
rml4707@aol.com