Aging Boat Questions

[jneely]

Our CD27 Troika is approaching the 40 year mark and appears to be in excellent shape. However, there are some things that concern me about a boat that old:

1. The two large Wilcox-Crittendon seacocks that shut off the cockpit drains have exhibited some pitting on the edges of the hole through the plug. They still shut off the water, but I am wondering if there might also be some corrosion problems with the bodies. They look fine from the outside, but I once had another brand of seacock basically disintegrate while being removed. It looked OK too at the time. Is there any test that I or a surveyor could do to determine the fitness of these seacocks for continued use?

2. The mast and its fittings are probably original also. Where should I be looking for trouble and how do I look for it? Is it necessary to remove spreaders, winches, tangs, etc. in order to determine if there are any problems. All rigging wires and turnbuckles as well as the stainless lifelines were replaced a few years ago.

Thanks for all responses.

[Paul Clayton]

This subject is well worth discussing, considering that many of our boats have reached or passed the 40 year mark. I think a lot depends on what you plan to do with the boat. Is it a fair weather day sailor, or a blue water boat, or something in between? For a day sailor, I think periodic visual inspection is probably adequate. That is what I do with mine. On the other hand, if I were sailing blue water, I would replace or glass over every through hull, take down the rig and inspect or replace the sheaves and tangs, inspect or replace the chainplates, and in general see that all the systems are up to date and in top-notch condition. Cape Dories are solidly built, well-designed and capable of handling a lot more than the average sailor, but any 40 year old boat needs a thorough survey and yarding before taking on blue water work.

I'd be very interested in seeing a discussion of the issues related to aging boats, and how various people handle them. Question - realistically, how long will a well-built fiberglass boat last?

[jbenagh]

One thing that happened to me last year is a failed sea cock backing plate. The yard manager where I launched said they were starting to see that a lot in older boats. After 30-40 years the plywood or the adhesive gave up the ghost. In my case the adhesive failed on about 30 degrees of one. Good thing they found it while still in the slings.

Jeff

[Paul D.]

Here's my two cents.

I believe our CD sailboats should last another generation at least with the proper care and attention. I say this because many 50-60 year old fiberglass boats are doing just fine, some are even doing offshore work, and because I believe the conservative, solid, not cored, layup schedules of the CD hull glasswork should remain sound. At least longer than lighter lay ups and other first gen cored hulls where builders were experimenting and may not have gotten the glass/resins ratios just right or later may have had moisture penetration. (Note the CD45 was built with a cored hull). CD prided themselves on quality control, almost ad nauseous if I remember the brochures right.

Don Casey's This Old Boat is a great winter read for setting up a plan to fix/maintain boats like ours. I would use that and maybe a few other sources and take a 'systems approach' to keeping the various needs sorted - rig and rigging, electrical, plumbing, hull and deck, sails, interior and exterior brightwork etc. Help me keep an eye on the big picture.

As for Seacocks, I've not had my hands on a WC one but if they are like the Spartan bronze fittings they should last a long time if they are not getting corroded and fuzzy with green and showing signs of wasting away. Going over the critical pieces of each system each spring help me gather, and sometimes change, my priorities for the season. For a seacock that was showing pitting for example, I would move it to the top of the list to pull and do a close inspection under a good light, where I could try, in my Slovenian, make and mend fashion, to keep it working. Or, I would ultimately sigh, sit down and decide to replace. Certainly on the critical items like that I would err on the side of caution.

[Jim Walsh]

I agree with Paul. I think routine maintenance will result in an indefinite working life for our boats. If you choose to ignore maintenance, upgrades, and general improvements you will still get many years of use, but in the end you will be saddled with a long list of items which must be attended to immediately. It would scare me to add up all the money I've spent on ORION since 2006, but I did it willingly and have never tried to fool myself that it is anything other than an expensive toy which gives me pleasure. I don't regret a penny I've invested in my avocation.

[jen1722terry]

Ditto to Jim, Paul and the others.

The older, heavier cruising hulls seem to last many decades. There are still a bunch of late-50's Pearson Tritons out there in their 6th decade and still sailing. Follow the lead of the others and do your upgrades and maintenance. If you do, you'll have many years of happy, safe sailing as well as a boat you can sell when the time comes to recoup some (though by no means all) of your investement.

Good luck and welcome to the CD community.

Terry

[Matt Cawthorne]

With regards to seacocks, the big worry is not the seacock itself, but the through hull fitting. If the through hull fitting breaks you have a huge problem. It is also the thing with the minimum cross section. While you are at it, replace the plywood backing with a nice new one made from marine grade plywood, that is sanded to have rounded edges and is coated with three coats of epoxy. Be sure to drill all of the holes a tad oversized and then coat them. Such a backing will outlast you and will look great the entire time.

A major concern of mine has to do with the rudder shaft. This is not a Cape Dory specific issue, it applies to all boats with stainless steel shafts. Crevice corrosion attacks the steel underneath the fiberglass. I saw evidence of it on my brothers boat years ago. Since I occasionally do offshore passages of a week or more, this concerns me. When my 36 is pulled this winter the rudder will be removed and the fiberglass removed from at least the top portion of it for the purposes of investigation.


Rigging is another major issue. Do you have swaged fittings?


Matt

[tartansailor]

One serious long term ageing issue on my Cape Dory 25 was the rudder.
From the rudder shaft down, there were 4 perpendicular SS pins that formed the backbone of the blade.
Well, with the passage of time and some heavy weather sailing, we experienced separation of the blade
from the rudder shaft; like a glove slipping off fingers. Fortunately a friend, who is a Stradevarius with a tourch,
welded a SS plate the same profile as the blade, to the shaft. We then finished it off with sheet PVC foam and epoxy.
Yes it's slightly heavier, but no showed noticable affect on tracking.

Another deficiency on my boat was the mild steel backing plates for the standing rigging. They rusted, and were replaced with SS.

Finally, as with most cabin top stepped masts, stress and strain lowered my side deck so that water puddles in the forwards
area of our gunnel to the cabin top instead of draining. I'm a bit baffled on how we're going to address that this winter.

richard

[Astronomertoo]

[quote="tartansailor"]One serious long term ageing issue on my Cape Dory 25 was the rudder.
From the rudder shaft down, there were 4 perpendicular SS pins that formed the backbone of the blade.
Well, with the passage of time and some heavy weather sailing, we experienced separation of the blade
from the rudder shaft; like a glove slipping off fingers. Fortunately a friend, who is a Stradevarius with a tourch,
welded a SS plate the same profile as the blade, to the shaft. We then finished it off with sheet PVC foam and epoxy.
Yes it's slightly heavier, but no showed noticable affect on tracking.

Another deficiency on my boat was the mild steel backing plates for the standing rigging. They rusted, and were replaced with SS.
------------
Two comments.
Long ago I had an (similar) Kittywake 23 that lost steerage one day on Galveston Bay. After removing the rudder at home, I found the SS tangs welded to the rear of the rudder post had all corroded off such that the rudder was finally free to do as it wished. We found the signs of obvious dissimilar metal erosion due likely to different types of metal in the shaft, tangs, and the used weld rod itself. After taking off the 2 sides of the rudder shell, we cleaned up the post, welded on new tangs, and pre-drilled the post for 1/4" fasteners after replacing the fiberglass blades. After rework and reinstallation I bolted on a tapered sacrificial zinc to both sides of the rudder shaft, and added a flexible copper brush cable at the top of the rudder shaft in the boat, which was wired to my brand new bonding/lightning system. I expect as long as the owners replace that zinc I do not think it would happen again. I suspect the same can happen to my CD 25. I will be removing it soon for needed glass work and will inspect its insides accordingly. It is really weird when you turn the rudder on a good reach near a lee shore and NOTHING happens! That day we lowered sails and motored home to San Leon.

Also, I have inspected several boats with old rigs with wire swages. One had dismasted off shore of Ft Pierce FL, and broke the mast at the spreaders. There were 4 severely corroded and cracked fittings on that rig that you could see from 3 ft away. Only one broke that day. The other boats were as bad, and were caught in time. I changed 2 on my Kittywake just after buying it in Houston. Folks, you need to look at them and your roller furler hardware carefully, or have a rigger do so.
Bob C

[jneely]

Thank you for all replies. I have been pretty good about inspecting everything I can get at each year and have been replacing things as needed. New mainsail this year, new standing rigging and lifelines a few years ago, I removed all seacocks that were no longer needed and had the holes glassed over. I take all the remaining seacocks apart each spring and service them. I also give them a good visual inspection. But it is items like these as well as mast fittings that worry me because I cannot be sure there are not invisible cracks or corrosion. Xray vision woulds be a help.

On another topic, what is the best way to treat stainless running rigging to ensure a long life? I usually give the wires a good spraying with WD40 each year, but I have heard that this might not be a good practice. Any thoughts?

[tjr818]

...On another topic, what is the best way to treat stainless running rigging to ensure a long life? I usually give the wires a good spraying with WD40 each year, but I have heard that this might not be a good practice. Any thoughts?

Slante, our CD27 does not have any SS running rigging, I didn't think that any of the Cape Dories did. I would be leery of using WD-40, it does displace water,but it also holds dust.

[jneely]

Thanks. Make that "standing rigging."

[Astronomertoo]

Thanks. Make that "standing rigging."

We occasionally hear of recommendations of using verious lubes, or lanolin, but if you think of how a rolled swage is performed of a fitting onto the wire, it is litterally squeezed onto the wire such that all parts of the the wire spiral lay are in tight conformance with the swage eye/fitting, and kind of lube will keep them from corroding. You generally must accept the fact of the pressing, and keep an eye on them forever.
However, if you consider the Norseman (ie) type of end fitting attachments that we can perform ourselves, the old recommendation of using a Stayloc type liquid locking agent is not only for keeping anything from loosening under rotary movement, it is also there for preventing corrosive sea water from entering and soaking the completed fitting. It is in there when you are complete, unlike a mechanically swaged fitting. That is also another reason many prefer to use them.
More food for thought.
Bob C