The Troubles Of Complicated Systems

[John Stone]

If there was ever any doubt about keeping your boat simple and developing the skills to do your own work read this scathing account about one owners experience in being confronted by the mediocrity and negligence in the marine industry.

http://boatstuff2remember.blogspot.com/ ... ustry.html

Their experience was so bad they even wrote a book about it.

[Joe Myerson]

Ouch! Makes you want to steer of mass-market boats built by investor-owned conglomerates.

[Neil Gordon]

Ouch! Makes you want to steer of mass-market boats built by investor-owned conglomerates.

What's great about Cape Dorys is that they were built before the accountants got involved in boat building.

[Paul Clayton]

Well, actually it was an old 70's vintage Tartan so I wouldn't blame the investor-owned corporation or the accountants for this one. I've known some Tartans and they are not overly complex or poorly constructed. If you read the account carefully, I think you will find that it was a case of an inexperienced buyer of a "good old boat" who didn't realize the boat was flat worn-out. Maybe the surveyor was to blame, or maybe the buyer was just so enamored of the boat that he overlooked the warning signs, or maybe it was just a sad case of a novice sailor not knowing what to look for. So many people jump into sailing without much of a background and get burned. It sounds as if the power train was worn out or broken, the running rigging was rotten, the electrics were shot, some cushions and the auto-pilot were missing - all of this is pretty common on older boats - unfortunately the buyer got the idea from what may have been misrepresentations by the seller, boatyard and surveyor that this boat had been maintained up to snuff, when in fact it was just another worn out yard queen. Note also that the writer of the post is "an aviation person" with possibly unrealistic expectations of how the rest of the world functions.

As a cost accountant myself, I mourn the great lost boat makers like Cape Dory and Westsail which might be with us today if they had had a decent accountant on staff.

[bottomscraper]

This sounds more like a story of a naive buyer with a set of rose colored glasses who spent a bit too much time reading sea adventure stories and not enough time understanding boats. If you look at the convoluted history of Tartan it's not a much of a surprise that they don't have all the records for every semi-custom boat ever made. I'm not even convinced that the engine, transmission and V-drive are original to the boat. The other problems he reports (missing parts, ancient running rigging) should have been obvious without a survey. I fail to see any "troubles of complicated systems", just a clueless buyer. Caveat Emptor

[tjr818]

Coming from Aviation he is probably used to nuts and bolts that have part numbers, lot numbers, dates of manufacture, and a manufacturer's name. Fortunately, sailing does not have a version of the FAA to deal with. It sounds as though he stumbled into a "perfect storm" of naivete' , an unscrupulous surveyor, and a buyer just looking to make a buck.

[Jerry Hammernik]

It would seem to me that there is a case for recovery against the surveyor. It's a sad fact of life that many of those involved are only legally responsible to themselves, but the surveyor should be bound to serve the interest of the buyer.

I'm not sure I would make a purchase as large as this without at least a moderate level of systems knowledge myself. I spent months researching pickup trucks and diesel engines before buying my new truck. The salesman is someone I have done business with for 15 years but I knew more about the truck than he did.

I know the owner will need to hire out some of the needed work. But they would be well served to research standing and running rigging and undertake the changes needed there themselves. The water system and the electrical system provide similar opportunities to do it yourself. The knowledge gained can be priceless in the future.

The blogger mentions that people likely will leave sailing and tell others to buy an RV. As a newer member of the RV world (the dear wife's hobby) I can tell you that that blog on the Tartan is repeated every day on RV forums including on brand new RV's.

Truly a sad case.

[Bob Ohler]

This owner just did not know a worn out line when he held one in his hands. And, he could not see with his own eyes that parts had not reinstalled with all the screws. This poor sole really should have started with a day sailer and worked his way up from there. He wants to blame everyone and take no responsibility himself. I'm sorry, but although I feel bad for the guy that his vee drive failed, I have hard time feeling sorry for the poor guy. I'm not sure I'd want to fly on a plane this had been affiliated with.

Bob O.
Sv Aloha Spirit
CD 30B

[Joe Myerson]

Agreed, the poster probably did not know what to look for. Also, there was a period of time when Tartan was churning out some badly built boats. Those days are long gone, and the brand is very reliable now ... but who knows? Was this one of the bad batch? I think the comment about buying an RV is crucial--clearly somebody who didn't know sailboats.

--Joe

[Maine Sail]

This sounds more like a story of a naive buyer with a set of rose colored glasses who spent a bit too much time reading sea adventure stories and not enough time understanding boats. If you look at the convoluted history of Tartan it's not a much of a surprise that they don't have all the records for every semi-custom boat ever made. I'm not even convinced that the engine, transmission and V-drive are original to the boat. The other problems he reports (missing parts, ancient running rigging) should have been obvious without a survey. I fail to see any "troubles of complicated systems", just a clueless buyer. Caveat Emptor

Amen Rich!

A boat buyer refused to do his homework, chose to write checks instead, and then is surprised when things go awry... Sounds like the guy chose not even to eb there during the survey. This is the absolute height of absurdity, if he did not show up to the survey. Of course, as usual here in the good ole USA, it is EVERYONE ELSE who is the problem not the buyer who chose to do nothing but write checks......

Oh BTW bell housings usually crack because the vessel hit or wrapped something on the prop. I only know of one instance where a bell housing failed because it was a manufacturing defect.

[SSgtPitt]

I really don't think this is a naive buyer...more of an arrogant prxxck. If this boat was such a p.o.s, how did he end up buying it? Did you not even look at it? I run into guys like this everyday. I really have no sympathy.

[tjr818]

I believe that there is only one "x" in prixk, but you would have to check that with George Carlin

[John Stone]

Interesting replies. I don't know the gentleman that wrote the article but I remain sympathetic if he in fact hired industry experts who failed to advise him on the condition of the boat. I don't think you should have to be an expert on sailboats to expect that what you purchase from a reputable dealer, have surveyed, and checked out by specialist is what you think your getting.

Do we expect to be an expert in automobiles, home construction, electronics, computers, etc. before we buy something? Who has the time to be an expert on everything they buy? Lots of folks are taking up sailing later in life (as hoped for by the marine industry) with the thought that they can learn as they go. Some pull it off surprisingly well. I don't think Hal Roth took up sailing until he was in his late 30s. He chartered a few times, read some books, bought a new boat, and sailed off across the Pacific. He wrote some scathing reports on lousy boat work by marine professionals and shoddy building practices. It's impossible to really understand boat construction and maintenance until you have waded into a boat and touched, repaired, or rebuilt all the components yourself. How many people really get a chance to do that? This is not an excuse for not learning as much as you can but this person's experience is sadly not unique. I have a number of friends that have at least some sailboat experience and who had nothing but lousy work done by so called experts.

I agree for someone without a lot of experience there is sgnificant risk in buying a sailboat from a guy at the marina or off of craigslist. But that is not how the author represented his experience. He claims he went to experts, paid them for advice, and got little for his money. I don't see how that's being naive.

John Harries wrote an insightful piece on his website about having a carbon fiber spar built for his sailboat Morgan's Cloud. He is an expert and he got fleeced. You can find it on their website Attainable Adventure Cruising.

I understand caveat emptor as well as anyone, but if you hire folks to help you and they fail you, for whatever reason, it seems criminal to me. I don't plan to buy his book so I don't know why he did not pursue legal action . . . or maybe he did. And almost anything that involves a lawyer is going to cost you an incredible amount of time and money. Anyway you slice it, this story is not a pretty one for the sailboat industry. And to blame it all on the buyer (without knowing the facts at least) gives a pass to those that failed to do their job. . . the same people we might one day finding ourselves depending on.

[David van den Burgh]

I acquired a '64 Alberg 30 as a project boat several years ago. The previous owner had paid a Michigan yard to do several projects aboard, which included a rewiring. I was amazed and disgusted when I went through the previous owner's receipts and saw how much the yard charged him for a wiring job that was worse than a careless DIY might perform. I will neither do business with nor recommend that yard. And even though I didn't pay for the job, it certainly left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'd say this is hardly exclusive to the marine industry, however. I had an exhaust shop do some work on an Audi. Long story short: I got ripped off. There's a mutual burden on consumers and providers: consumers need to do their research and avoid unscrupulous yards; yards/surveyors/riggers/mechanics need to be held accountable for their shoddy work. In the end, though, I've learned that NO ONE cares as much about my boat as I do.

[David Morton]

In the face of all this darkness concerning competence and integrity in the marine repair industry, let me shed a few welcoming rays of light:
http://www.lackeysailing.com

Tim Lackey is a single-handed restorer with a terrific OCD problem! He photo documents all his work, posted on his website so clients can follow his work on a daily basis. No nameless, faceless, transients doing work at minimum wage, he does all the work himself. His hourly rate is way less than any of the boatyard shops I have checked for similar work.
For those of us lucky enough to have access to Tim's shop, life is good. But he can't be the only one around. My guess is there are plenty of competent and honest shops around to find if you can spend the time doing the research.