headsail size for a Cape Dory 25D

[gmills]

We've recently purchased a 1982 CD25D and will be replacing the existing 100% headsail. Any advice on how large a headsail I should consider? We sail out of Falmouth, MA, daysailing/overnighting in Vineyard Sound and Nantucket Sound and cruising as far as Block Island and Newport. We're frequently in 15-20 kts of wind. I've just installed a Harken headsail furler on the boat, and I may go up to a 120% headsail. My sense is that anything larger than a 120 might make tacking more difficult, with the sail getting caught up in the shrouds as the boat comes about. Although I can always keep the sail partially furled in heavy air, the sail profile may be lifted too high off the deck.

Suggestions welcome, especially from those who sail regularly in 15+ kts.

Thanks in advance!

[Sea Hunt Video]

I installed a 130 Genoa (UK Sails) with a Harken Mark IV, Unit 0. The UK sail maker recommended a 135 (which is what the prior owner had for many years). With my limited skills and mostly sailing solo, I thought a 130 was at the upper limit of my comfort zone. I actually wanted a 120 but the sail maker said that was just too small. He reminded me of my new Harken furler and he also built some material into the foot of the Genoa to help the sail's curvature when furled in to 110-100.

The prior owner sailed in NJ waters. I sail on Biscayne Bay. Mostly conditions on the Bay are 10-12 kts, with a few days a week up to 15-18 kts for short periods of time. Summer seas and winds are predictably lower. Winter months winds are more frequently in the 17-20 kts.

[David Morton]

I had a 150 on my 25D, Wielewaal, for a few years, in Harpswell, Maine. I would not go that big. For all of the spring and a good chunk of the summer I would sail with a partially furled headsail because it generated too much weather helm in anything over 5 kts. A 120 - 130 would be my recommendation, unless you like to sail with the toerail in the water all the time! Keep in mind that the headsail is really the engine on the 25D, so I would generally reef the main first, but even with the jenny alone, the full 150 was a handful. Frankly, for your 15-20 kt winds the working jib should be perfect.

David

[gmills]

Thanks, David.

Just to follow-up . . .

With the 130 fully out, were you then limited to using the outer jiblead track? When you partially furled the sail (to 110 or 120), did you then sometimes move the jibsheets to the inner track when going upwind?

Greg

PS. I recall seeing your boat online when it was listed this winter. By the time I enquired, it was also already sold!

[David Morton]

With my 150 I used the outer track and you would have to do the same with a 130. I generally didn't bother to change to the inner track unless I actually changed sails to the working 100 jib or planned to spend a couple or more hours close hauled. Too lazy to untie my stop knot and walk up to the jenny track!

David

[Steve Darwin]

Arabella came with 100%, 120% and 130% jibs, all hank-on. For several years we experimented with the larger jibs, but, sailing in Buzzards Bay and the Sounds, we kept having to go back to the 100%, which is all we ever use now. The 100% also means higher pointing (sheeted to the inside track), better visibility, and no chafing against shrouds, spreaders, or sailors standing at the mast. In winds 20+ knots, the boat sails beautifully on a reach with the 100% and the mainsail under wraps. It's not called a "working jib" for nothing. If (when) Arabella gets a roller-furler, I may go with a larger headsail and adjust its size to suit conditions, but a large jib roller-furled to "100%" size doesn't set very well, does it? - Steve D.

[gmills]

Thanks, Steve. Your experience on this is REALLY helpful.

I also like the 100 on the inner track, for most conditions. This keeps the foot of the sail clear of the lifelines and stanchions (as well as avoiding the shrouds and spreaders).

It sounds like your 120 is too large to sheet on the inner track. Is that correct?

For versatility in light and heavy air, I'm considering a 110 or 115. Going downwind in light air, that would allow me to sail wing-on-wing, sheeting to the outer track and using the whisker pole.

I agree that partially furling the headsail isn't great for creating a good airflow, so I try to avoid that.

Other thoughts welcome!

Greg

[Dick Kobayashi]

Greg, I respect the views of my sailing neighbor - Steve Darwin - but I have a slightly different view.

When I bought Susan B in 2001 - I shortly bought a 130 genoa. With roller furling I can reef down easily to about 100 and often do. But even here in Buzzards Bay there are light air days and/or parts of days and I find the ability to reef down to 100% or open up to 100% using the roller furling gear an immense help. When wind is limited, say under 10-12 the 130 makes a difference. And the ability to adjust with little effort in nice. I own a 100% jib but have only used it a few times.

Note that the headsail on the 25D is doing most of the work most of the time. My advice is to go with 130, so you have the power when you need it (mornings, evenings, and lots of other times when ther is light air)

I often leave the mooring with the main reefed and sail with the genny at 130, then dial it down as conditions warrant. The 25D is a perfect boat for these waters. I know you will enjoy yours.

[Dick Kobayashi]

Just a follow up to my earlier post.

- never had a problem with hanging up on tacking with a 130.

- with the 130 partially furled it doesn't "set" perfectly, but does "set" adequately given that there is so much damm wind around here when you are dialed down to 100% there is no appreciable effect on speed/performance.

btw are you on the Buzzards Bay side of Falmouth or the Vineyard Sound side?

[gmills]

Thanks, Dick.

A roller-furler with a 130 (sheeted to the outer track) is the approach I had expected to take when I bought the boat this winter. I'm allowing myself to get some experience with the existing 100 and will make a decision by the end of this season on a new headsail.

Here's a very specific question: When you're closehauled with the 130 (trimmed in tight, sheeted to the outer track), does the foot of the sail rest on top of the forward lifelines, or does the sail wrap around outside of the forward stanchion posts? Either way, it would seem to disrupt the air flow needed to point as high as possible to the wind. Perhaps the foot of your 130 is cut so that it can clear the lifelines. Or, when you partially furl it in, the foot may be raised off the deck enough to provide clearance. Also, as David Morton pointed out in an earlier reply, a headsail can be fitted with additional material along the foot to improve its curvature when sheeted in.

Reactions/advice welcome, as always!

Greg

1982 CD 25D #24
Sea Jay

PS. We're moored in Falmouth Inner Harbor and sail mostly on Vineyard Sound. We used to sail a lot on Buzzards Bay with our previous boat, so I'm familiar with those conditions also. We're loving the seaworthiness of the 25D!

[Dick Kobayashi]

My 130 is cut so that the foot is more or less parallel to the water and i haven't had any problems, note that my sunshade runs along the foot as well as up the leach - so it takes the abrasion. You could consider a high cut clew but I have no idea of the effect on efficiency. This is a situation in which I think it is beneficial to use a local sailmaker who can look at the boat and fit the sail/share his/her observations with you.

You will be using the sail for 10 years so it is worth it. I had the sailmaker make a sail cover out of the same material as the sunshade on the genny - so for once in my life I was color coordinated. The cost was minimal, as I recall.

The rf gear, plus a proper custom sail was the first and BEST investments I made in Susan B.
There are lots of other gizmos, but this $2500+/- gave the greatest return, a return that is continuing today (purchased in 2001).

dk
dk

[Steve Darwin]

Yes, there are times when you will be glad to have a large jib to get the 25D moving. With hank-on headsails, there is incentive to be conservative in order to avoid trips to the bow. Furthermore, on Buzzards Bay, a hank-on 130 jib usually needs changing about lunch time. So inconvenient! And if I delay the jib change (state of denial), I end up up wrestling with sails on a pitching bow. With roller furling, none of this is not an issue. Both of Arabella's larger hank-on jibs are cut high enough to clear the lifelines and are sheeted outside of everything. - Steve

[Neil Gordon]

I have way less experience sailing Buzzards Bay and Vineyard Sound than some on this board, but all together, I probably have a couple of months' worth in total. I'm in agreement with what's been said so far.

I've mostly sailed there with full main and 130% Genoa. Most of my sailing there has been vacation cruising and so it's often earlier in the day and not late afternoon. I've experienced quite a few very light air days where 100% would not have been enough.

With a downwind destination where a long run or broad reach, I've done fine leaving the main down and sailing with just the 130 Genoa.

The 130 will tack better in heavy air than in light air!

[Dick Kobayashi]

This is a really interesting thread - I could have used it in 2001.

Note all locals that it appears that Marion will have fireworks on July 4th this year. Anchoring in the outer harbor, having dinner and a few drinks, and listening to the on shore band and watching the fireworks is a real real treat. This is out plan this year. We usually sleep on board and return to Mattapoisett harbor in the AM.

Outer Marion harbor is well protected from the SW wind and always pleasant.

This is our plan, weather permitting, this year. Any other takers???

CD's with headsails of any size are welcome (just kidding).

Not that far from Falmouth or any where in the region.

[gmills]

Thanks to all for the good feedback!

One suggestion has come separately to me from another sailer friend: to use the working jib and then also carry a "drifter" sail (lightweight, ripstop nylon) when going downwind or reaching. It doesn't require a pole.

Do any of you have experience with a drifter? My impression is that (for those of us with roller-furlers) this requires a sail change and would thus be cumbersome, but I may be mistaken about that. It also may simply be too much fabric aloft for a 25D, except in very light air.

Greg