Cracks!?!?

[grluecke]

My wife is up in Maine ding brightwork, I'll post that story to "Projects".

This is gong to be a project, too, is my guess...

She sent these photos of the aft end of the keel. I'd be interested to hear opinions on cause, and a preview of what is in store for the repair.

I also went back and found some pix from the end of the 2013 season, and I can see the cracks in those, although they are covered over with bottom paint. Look closely at that spot, it almost looks like there is an indentation, as if she were dropped. In the 2013 pix, I thought my hauler had improperly placed the wood supports, but I think they just happened to put them at that spot.

Cracks...

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Closeup...

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From 2013...

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[tjr818]

In the bottom photo, the cracks appear to be under the bottom paint, so I think the cracks happened before the paint job. Was the boat hauled before the paint job, or after?

[Jerry Hammernik]

Greg,

That's a heck of a commute to go sailing. Although my youngest daughter just honeymooned up in Maine and loved it!

You didn't mention which model CD this is. If it is a 28 I'm familiar with the problem. My 25 and my 28 both had the same issue. Cape Dory built the hull and left a void space where the two sides of the hull come down to the bottom of the keel. It's behind the ballast and there is nothing there. Either water migrates or condensation happens and water builds up in the void. I think when the boat is subjected to freezing weather the expansion of the water to ice causes the cracks. On both boats I drilled a hole in to let the water escape. The 25 I had fixed by a boat yard, the 28 I did myself. I put a shop vac on the hole and let it run to suck out moisture. Then I filled it with epoxy. You have to watch the amount of epoxy because large batches can generate significant heat. After the space was filled, I patched the area with standard fiberglass repair techniques.

I don't know where the boat is located in Maine, but if you are anywhere near Whitefield, contact Tim Lackey at Lackey Sailing. He is one of the most talented boat repair artists I have encountered. He is great at giving advice and you can discuss having him do the work if you aren't the DIY type. I'll include a link to his web site. http://www.lackeysailing.com

Good Luck.

[Cathy Monaghan]

The cracks on your boat appear to surround the rudder shoe. Also, note the curve in the bottom aft end of the keel. The bottom of the rudder shoe should be in line with the keel -- no curve. There has either been some kind of compression of the fiberglass forward of the shoe or the shoe may be loose. It may be neither, but you'll have to remove all of the bottom paint in that area to expose the fiberglass to see if the cracks are in the fiberglass. If there's a problem with the rudder shoe or the fiberglass behind the rudder shoe, you'll have to grind out the fairing compound that surrounds the shoe to see what's going on in there. Start all the way aft, below the rudder, and grind your way down to the bronze and work forward until you've exposed the entire shoe. If your rudder shoe is like the one on our boat (we have a CD32), it will be held on with 4 pins which you'll have to pound out. Once you've removed the shoe, you'll be able to see what kind of shape the fiberglass is in and what exactly needs to be repaired.

Below is a photo of the rudder shoe of the CD36 Far Reach.



The web site for Far Reach's refit has a large list of projects with lots of photos. Go to:
http://www.farreachvoyages.com/dailylog ... jul10.html
then search on "rudder shoe".

Hope this helps.

Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

[gates_cliff]

You lost me at "my wife is up in Maine doing bright work".. Shaking my head in wonderment! Some men are much luckier than others.

After being reminded in another thread of the risk of sounding sexist, just want to say that I know there are many spouses that do beautiful bright work. My wife has many wonderful qualities and my life has been enriched in many ways because of her, but doing bright work simply doesn't enter into her world.

[fmueller]

interesting thread ...

I noticed some marks (cracks?) on my CD 27 last week as I was preparing to paint the bottom, I did wonder just how the rudder post is mounted on my boat ...

From what has been posted above I'd be inclined to think I've got the "void" problem, just looking at the position of the marks ... but I can't be sure ...

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[Dick Villamil]

ditto for the Typhoon. Water actually turned the fiberglass into a porous "mush". Had to grind it all out, let it dry then dremel a "V" along each crack well below the gel coat and as deep as the crack after sanding the bottom paint off. Then I filled the cracks with a thicken West System epoxy, faired it off then added a barrier coat (3 coats) before adding fresh bottom paint. Water collects in the voids and as it freezes, it expends and makes the cracks. Worth fixing either by owner or have it professionally done ($).

[Joe Myerson]

Ditto for Crème Brûlée, a 25D. I'll wait another season, before checking. (Uh-oh...)
--Joe

[gates_cliff]

Uh oh, I noticed the same thing on my keel. Since I'm back in the water, I trust I'll be ok until fall.

[grluecke]

Thanks for the good responses, I've been traveling and had to put off my replies.

Yes, Tim, those cracks must have been there even before the photo where they have bottom paint on, that was after hauling in 2013. We had her painted and in again last year, and now this! I'm looking through photos back to our original survey in 2010 to see what those cracks may have looked like in the past. Cathy, you picked up on the reason that I even took pictures, that "kink" in the keel. I'm pretty sure our haulers just happened to put the chocks right in that spot, but I was worried they used boards that were too small... This is also from 2013, and it really shows that "compression", as you called it. But that is solid fiberglass, very thick, in that spot, so I can't believe resting on a board could bend it...

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Jerry, it **is** quite a commute for sailing, but it turns out the ocean sailing is not nearly the same in Iowa! You and Dick both mentioned the freezing aspect, and this winter was especially cold in New England this year. Although sitting out exposed like that, if there is any water in there, any temps below 32 deg will freeze it. If you look closely and the most recent picture, I think I see flakes on the ground below it.

Cliff, I **did** luck out this year, my wife, Jennifer, is up with her mom on other logistics, and she cleaned, taped, replaced missing bungs, sanded, and just finished her seventh coat of Cetol Marine. Somewhere, we had the number "eleven" as required coats, but I actually talked her down to 7 coats. Is that enough? We did all this in 2011, but used just the "can-directions" recommendation of 3 coats. Sure, we put on a fresh coat each year thereafter, and I'm not sure if it was the tarp blowing off and flapping around two winters ago or what, but there were bare spots all over the place! Even on the wheel!

I'm going to make sure she swabs the decks when she is finished, though, to get all that sawdust cleaned up!! (not to repost, you can see a photo of Jennifer in the thread titled "Still at it!". Bung replacement pix, too! When you look at her picture, go see if you can convince your better halves that I am justified in my cleanup demands...ok, I'll do the cleanup...)

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Finally, I hope I don't have to go the to extreme that Cathy points to:I never want to see that rudder fitting that clearly! I don't even want to get as far along as Dick had to go on his Typhoon, but if Katie Girl and Crème Brûlée have the problem, I'll try to document at best as I can if I get the fix don this year. I hate to let it wait, but I also have to miss my sailing window! My son says that if we plan everything right, even the "Cathy fix" will only take 3 days...

[Dick Villamil]

I am not an authority of storing boats on blocks but I would think that positioning the boards along the keel instead of across the keel would spread the load over a larger area - reducing the compression in one small place. Just think of a 10,000 lb boat supported on 2 boards with a total surface area of 20 square inches. This equates to 500 lbs/square inch. Extend this to 6 months and there is a significant duration of that pressure. Any voids or weak spots are sure to show up - and they possible have in the area where there is no ballast encapsulated in the keel. Once water enters=, any expansion on freezing will surely make some additional cracks etc etc and so forth. With my Typhoon I place the keel on a 2 x 6 the entire length of the keel and let the rudder and attachments hang off the end with no compression forces on it. The board is supported by a heavy steel channel beam that the 2 x 6 rests on. I also have bunks on the trailer that helps support the hull but most of the weight is spread along the entire length of the keel. Since the keel gets less wide as you go aft, and there is less lead there, the compression loading on the narrow, ballast-free aft end of the keel (in my opinion) is too great for the structure of the boat. My other boat has a fin keel and it rests on boards in the channel of the steel cradle and was made to carry the load (adjustable pads on the cradle prevent the boat from tipping fore/aft or side to side.

[Oswego John]

Dick,

I completely agree with you.

Another important reason not to block up the hull adjacent to the rudder post is because there is a seam between the aft end of your hull proper and the false keel right behind the main hull. The rudder post lower support is attached to this false keel.

O J

[Steve Laume]

I will agree that these are some pretty poor examples of a proper blocking job. I still doubt if it has much to do with the problem. Especially in the OP. That looks very much like someone worked on the rudder and didn't do a great job of fairing things back in with the proper materials. It may be compounded by water in the hull, freezing.

Dick, when you did your calculations for how much force is exerted per square inch you left out the fact that the boat weight is not equally distributed. The balance point is just aft of the turn in the keel. The forward blocking takes the majority of the weight. The bottom of the keel is wider there and is solid glass backed up with lead. It is not something you are apt to crush. The stern blocking bears very little weight. If you took away the poppets, you could probably lift the stern by getting your back under the transom. Not recommended. Think of your boat like a seesaw. The forward block is the center point the little kid is the bow and the big kid is the stern. These kids are not emaciated or obese and it would be easy to lift the heavy side. You get the idea; not much weight on that stern block.

I would still want to see a 2X6 instead of a sliver. I am just not convinced the blocking created the problem. It is time to sand off the bottom paint and see what you have under there. I would bet you are going to find some sort of filler, Steve.

[grluecke]

Steve, you are noting the right points. I sent those pix to my marine surveyor when I took them, and you echoed his opinion on the blocking. I'll be up at the boat in a couple of weekends and will post updates as I go.

[fmueller]

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