Typhoon Angle of point on a beat

[jdlomonaco]

Klem, again thanks for your reply. I believe I agree with all you said with respect to leeway and heel. Though I think all fin keel designs are not equal and that the TY full length keel design is better than many older fin keel designs in mitigating leeway (racing and modern boat design being the exception). I also believe that the GPS method I am using is the better than using a compass (though I am thinking that using both may help to quantify the various factors). But this is not the purpose of my "quest". I can not change the hull shape so this is not of importance. What I am looking for is things I can change to finish my boat tune up after her long nap. There have been a few suggestions of things to consider but, I am still wondering if my fore stay tension might need to be adjusted to reduce fore stay sag. If so, how much tension (and resulting aft-ward mast hook) is acceptable (Cape Dory's owners manual says none). Also I was wondering if other TY owners could relate their results so I can determine if I am just chasing the wind (forgive the pun).

[Oswego John]

JDL

"if I am just chasing the wind". (forgive the pun)". No reason for forgiveness, I thrive on puns and double entendres.

I own a Ty Weekender.

Is it a permanent hook that is in your upper mast? Next time that you unstep the mast, run a taut piece of string along the concave? aft side of the mast between the mast tip and the butt.

Your shrouds sound okay but I think that you should look into removing the slack in your forestay. I hand tune my rigging but some owners have a Loos tension gauge to set their shrouds and stays. Ask around to see if you can borrow one from a friend.

All of the other posts give excellent advice. One thing that they didn't touch on was sail balance. Try using the 100% foresail instead of the jenny and see if your bow comes up more.

Good luck
O J

[tjr818]

...Your shrouds sound okay but I think that you should look into removing the slack in your forestay. I hand tune my rigging but some owners have a Loos tension gauge to set their shrouds and stays....
Good luck
O J

This borders on discussions of tillers and prop lockers
The book on the CD27 just says keep the mast straight and snug the stays and shrouds, with the aft lowers being a bit looser. If I were to use a Loos tension gauge, what tension should I look for? 100% ? That seems pretty tight. 50% ? That seems pretty loose (or would that be Loos?)

[Klem]

...Your shrouds sound okay but I think that you should look into removing the slack in your forestay. I hand tune my rigging but some owners have a Loos tension gauge to set their shrouds and stays....
Good luck
O J

This borders on discussions of tillers and prop lockers
The book on the CD27 just says keep the mast straight and snug the stays and shrouds, with the aft lowers being a bit looser. If I were to use a Loos tension gauge, what tension should I look for? 100% ? That seems pretty tight. 50% ? That seems pretty loose (or would that be Loos?)

To fully address this topic would take an entire book of which there are a few and also someone more knowledgeable than I. I will do my best to provide a short practical version.

We tune our rigs primarily for sail shape but also to prevent damage which can occur at extremes of rig tuning. Because the mast, rigging and hull all deflect under load, we have to put some preload into the rig to keep the deflections reasonable. Due to a host of factors including corrosion, fatigue, etc, having your stays in the neighborhood of 10-20% of their breaking strength is a good idea. Unless you are racing with fairly new standing rigging and everything regularly inspected, I would not recommend exceeding 20% tension at the dock on any stay but you will see higher numbers in those same stays under sail. I do use a Loos gauge but I only use it to set an upper limit on tension, I get my sail shape by eye and feel.

The tension in your forestay will determine the shape of your jib. Your sail should be cut to take into account some amount of sag so don't try to get the sag to zero as that is physically impossible. If the stay sags too much, you will get poor sail shape which will hurt windward performance a lot. Too little sag can also be a problem. I would recommend sighting up the stay while sailing hard on the wind on a breezy day and looking at your sail shape. If the lower part of the sail looks inefficient and draft aft, then you should probably increase the tension. To tension the forestay, you generally increase the backstay tension although you use running backstays for a fractional rig and the cap shrouds for a backstayless rig. If your mast rake is wrong, then you can play with your forestay but you often need to also adjust your lowers if you do this as your mast may become inverted. A backstay will usually have a better mechanical advantage than a forestay so you may find that 15% breaking strength for it gets you to the max desired forestay tension. On racing boats, they will often go to 30%+.

For shrouds, the goal is to keep the rig in column as you don't want a mast that looks like s. Once you get involved in lowers and intermediates, you sail the boat at differing windspeeds and sight up the mast to see the shape of it. By adjusting the shrouds you try to make the mast as straight side to side as possible. A good rule of thumb on overall tension is that your lee shrouds should have very little load but definitely not slack when you are sailing along on a day at your maximum heel angle before you need to reef. The reason that many boats have 2 lowers a side or a baby stay is to help control the bend of the mast. You want the mast to slowly bend aft as you look up and you do this by pulling harder on your forward lowers.

Getting it right is a bit finicky and you may find it takes a few incremental adjustments to get the rig right.

[tjr818]

To clarify my question, when I was referring to percentage of tension. What I meant to ask was, what percentage of the suggested Loos gauge number should I tension to? I have been under the impression that the Cape Dories were meant to be loosely tensioned.

[Oswego John]

I agree. Loose but not sloppy-loose. And certainly not too tight like a guitar string. Something like the three bears porridge, not too hot, not too cold, but just right.

Until there was a change in the support, Ty W/Es were susceptible to sunken coach roofs. It was a continuous cycle. The standing rigging was tuned too tightly and the butt of the mast would be pressed down on the roof and lower it. So the unwary owner would snug up some more on the turnbuckles to what felt good and the cycle would continue.

As for myself, I use jam nuts (hex nuts) on my turnbuckles. I set the rigging tension to what I think is about okay and then tighten the nuts. They can be adjusted for tweaking. So far, after many seasons, I have had no serious incidents. Knock on wood.

BTW, I lock the prop on my Ty.

O J

[tjr818]

...BTW, I lock the prop on my Ty. O J

Just like the trays on the airlines "...in the upright and locked position."

Tiller or wheel

[jdlomonaco]

Oswego John thanks for your reply. OK I'm getting posts faster than I can digest them, but your question about mast hook struck my fancy. My TY is also a weekender. The hook (bend) I am talking about is induced by the interplay of the fractional fore stay with the mast head back stay. I have a hand written note in my owner's manual that I made many years ago, so long ago I can't remember the source of the information. It basically states that the mast at spreader location can be displaced forward up to about 1 to 2 inches (I'm assuming at the dock). I have not tightened the fore stay to this point yet but am considering doing this once I get a look at the fore stay sag under sail.

Other posters. We are starting to go in the direction that interests me. I don't have a Loos gauge but might be able to borrow one. I am unaware of the specification % of (breaking strength, gauge reading) mentioned. Can someone clarify this?

[Oswego John]

The hook (bend) I am talking about is induced by the interplay of the fractional fore stay with the mast head back stay.
It basically states that the mast at spreader location can be displaced forward up to about 1 to 2 inches (I'm assuming at the dock). I have not tightened the fore stay to this point yet but am considering doing this once I get a look at the fore stay sag under sail.

jdl, The way I see it, if you tighten the forestay so that the mid mast moves foreward 1" to 2", if the aft stay isn't loosened then the "hook" in the upper mast will only be exacerbated.

O J

[Sea Hunt Video]

BTW, I lock the prop on my Ty.

O J

OJ: Are you sure you want to disclose that kind of information publicly

When I sailed my Ty Weekender, initially I used the hank on Genoa (probably about 130%). After a few months I started using the working jib (probably about 100 %). Although I did not have a knotmeter or similar device it seemed to me like my speed was faster with the working jib (not sure why) and I pointed higher (again not sure why) although I did run the working jib sheets through the inner tracks and fairleads. Perhaps that was the reason.

[trapper]

Loos gages are great. You will want to use the smaller one (A). I don't know what values you need on the Ty. If you cannot find a tunning guide for the Ty, you may consder starting with the values set for the Pearson Ensign, another Alberg Design. The boat is 22' so it is larger than the Ty but it has pretty much the same keel configuration. North has a good tunning guide as do some others. It is a starting point anyway.

My Ensign points pretty well. I can ususally make 45 degrees in 5+ knots but I cannot really compete with a lot of the larger fin keeled boats that can sail down into the 30s. And when the wind is not blowing--forget it! If the wind is under 2K, I can barely make 60 degrees. When I get medium wind (say 5-10) I try to get the most twist out of my main. I take my traveler all the way up and set my boom center to just north of center. I seem to get a little more out of the boat that way and keep a slight heel. Probably the thing that affects my performance to weather the most is a clean bottom. If the bottom is dirty, I am slow and I cannot go to weather.

Skeep is correct about going to Rapahannock in June. Those folks know how to make the Ty's sing. I'm going to try to go this year.

[jdlomonaco]

All, I did another trail today in reasonably the same conditions as my first trial (see my first post). The differences today being that I single handed so it was harder to watch the GPS and instead of using my 155% I used my 105%. As predicted the TY pointed higher with the smaller jib. Instead of 130 degrees tack to tack I got about 105 degrees which puts me at about 52 degrees off the wind on a tack. I'm much happier with this than the 65 degrees. It was interesting to note that my boat speed was only slightly reduced about 4.7 mph as best I could tell. Anyway being me I will do more trials. I appreciate all your input.

[Skeep]

Well, I have to say, I did use a Loos on my Ty a couple of years back and though I attempted to fit it correctly, I could not get a tension that was "just right." I gave up on the guage because I could see it was too tight to be right. Like Oswego et. al. have said, you have to remember the compression on the cuddy cabin too. So I set it like the book says, straight up mast, and taut shrouds but not overly tight. Underway in a good wind I check for sag or so forth and try to ignore the leeward shrouds waggle. In the final analysis, if the boat is sailing well I leave it alone.

As one of the guys at Rappahannock said to me, front shroud at 10 and back at 5. Or I think he did.

Trapper which club are you located at on Lake Murray??

[tjr818]

...As one of the guys at Rappahannock said to me, front shroud at 10 and back at 5. Or I think he did....

Sleep, those numbers don't match anything on the Loos gauge I've borrowed.
I thought that the front stay tension was controlled by adjusting the back stay

[jim trandel]

Hi Tim,
On a fractional rig found on the Ty, tensioning the backstay results in bending the mast to reduce draft in the mainsail. This will reduce heel and weather helm and "possibly" increase speed. You will find that sailing is very dynamic and has multiple factors. I have also a cunningham which also affect mainsail draft. With dynamic wind / weather conditions and multiple control options, a Typhoon never gets boring!
Best regards,
Jim Trandel