Smaller CDs Rudder issues.

[bamabratsche]

Thanks, OJ! All the rudder info I got from you and everyone else here last year was really helpful to have before starting the project.

Matane: if it helps, I also have some vertical play in mine, which I gather is normal and not an issue (as long as you can't lift it enough for the rudder shaft to come out of the shoe, of course). If I lift on the bottom of mine, it will go up maybe 1/4 of an inch or so. As I understand it, side-to-side play is more of a concern since it means the shoe is wearing and doesn't exactly fit the rudder shaft anymore. Mine has a very slight amount of side-to-side play, which I decided to put in the "keep an eye on it" category since I think fixing it involves removing the glassed-in shoe from the boat altogether.

If you want a better idea of how it's all put together, the owner's manual posted on this site has detailed descriptions and drawings. (http://www.capedory.org/cdsoalook-group ... inemanuals)

As far as the barrier coat goes, I only took the rudder back to the gelcoat because I wanted to encapsulate the whole thing in fiberglass, and the additional epoxy coats were as much to fill in the weave of the cloth as to provide some extra moisture protection. The rest of the hull seemed to be in good shape (and had been in the water for at least a year and a half before I got it), so I just scraped the loose existing bottom paint off as much as possible, sanded, and repainted. I considered barrier coating the whole thing, but started running out of time before I had to be back in the water and had to prioritize.

[tjr818]

matane,

Our boat, Sláinte, has very little up and down movement and luckily very little side to side. My surveyor said this was all normal and well within range. Our boat had been indoors for two years when the survey was done. We though about striping the hull down to the gelcoat and starting over with the barrier coats and hard anti-fouling, but Sláinte had spent almost all of her life in the fresh waters of Lake Michigan and spent winters on the hard. There are no blisters. The bottom was in good shape and striping off all of the old ablative bottom paint would have taken a lot of time and a lot of boat dollars. We cleaned up the bottom and added a fresh coat of ablative.
I have always used West system epoxies when building or repairing. I don't think an epoxy barrier coat would be required over epoxy resin.

[matane]

Tj- This boat has been in a slip, and pulled out in the past, repainted w/ablative. In 2012 it was simply pulled out and washed.
Tomorrow I should hear results from the survey and deal with it from there. The Ty I bought when I was in Maine had been on its trailer for quite a few years- it was in very good condition- and dumb luck on my behalf. I was not really aware of all the stuff associated with somewhat larger boats slipped/moored a good part of their life. As I've said- I always had trailerable fishing boats or Lazers and Sunfish.

[Dick Villamil]

I would definitely use a barrier coat - one gallon of the 2-part material should allow 3 coats over the entire wetted surface (at least it did on my Ty) and an additional coat on the rudder. Make sure that you remove all bottom paint and then wipe the surface with the appropriate de-waxer etc - follow the directions by the manufacturer. Good luck - the hardest part of the project is getting started - the rest is a labor of love! Bottom paint offers zero protection against water intrusion through micro cracks and gelcoat.

[Skeep]

Let's update this conversation a bit.

I'm sanding Baggy Wrinkles down to the barrier and gel coat to apply new barrier and better paint. As part of that process I have encountered the close up of my rudder shaft and the gap or separation some of you have mentioned above. I include a photo of that to which I refer:



The full rudder:



If I understand the conversation correctly, the separation I see here which goes down about half the rudder, is a fiberglass separation and probably should be removed and re-fiberglassed. It looks like the leading edge of the shaft is embraced by but not surrounded by fiberglass--is this due to wear or intended? Are there extrusions of metal into the rudder that I do not see?

If so, then my next question is; Does the rudder come up from the gudgeon enough in order for it to be removed from below after the tiller is disconnected in the cockpit?

Info: My rudder shows no signs of wobble or unnecessary movement other than expected, up and down and back and forth. Nor has it ever failed while underway. But with this information I am happy to remove it and re-fiberglass it for another generation of service!

Advice all?

[Bristol14]

Sleep, nice job of removing layers of bottom paint. I'm contemplating this as a next year project. Two questions though: how did you remove the bottom paint; since it looks like you still have vestiges of the old bottom paint left, will you remove down to the gel coat before you barrier coat?

Thx.

Paul

[Skeep]

Paul, what you see is a red ablative and then a grey barrier and then a white gel coat.

My intent is to thoroughly remove the ablative and never go back. I trailer my Ty and sail in fresh water. Even an excursion in brackish or salty for a week won't hurt its feelings.

May use an expoxy interlux gloss and no barrier. Checking on an article in SAIL magazine right now. West Marine advised me that with what I have a barrier may not be an issue. Paints are changing these days. We shall see. Have to study that. I have a lot more sanding to do however.

By the way, I power washed the ablative and even that did not remove the dusty surface. I used a green scratchy pad with water to take off the bulk of the powder and then my sander with a vacuum to remove the rest. A long process. Good stuff for a philosopher.

[Steve Laume]

There was a thread on here a while ago about this issue. I believe the best advise was to leave the rudder in place and wrap a couple of layers of glass tape around the post. You might want to grind and fill the cracked area a bit first. Removing the rudder is a big job that you could probably avoid and still accomplish what needs to be done, Steve.

[Skeep]

Well seems good advice. I resort to Army logic, i.e. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, ok, maybe the Army doesn't abide by that all the time. I do try. I was sanding today on dear Baggy Wrinkles. She purred under my vibrating sander. I inspected my rudder once again. I lifted it and let it rest. I examined it and made the decision to leave her alone! I will fill in the gaps with epoxy and trust that Alberg's design will carry me through. I mean really, I've sailed this girl in 25kts and she glides painlessly through the mix. I may be jaded but I'm not interested in trying to fix something which don't look broke. Steve, thanks for your expert analysis. I'll abide by it.

[ariasis]

Skeep my rudder had the same problem you are looking at. Mine was pry much worse though. See it here http://bristol-blue.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... phoon.html

I did mine in place. First I taped some wax paper between the hull and the rudder just to make sure I didn't glue the rudder to the hull. Then I wrapped the post with fiberglass mat strips, extending the strips back out onto the rudder. I finished it off by faring it out with west system 410 fairing compound. It took some time and patients but it looks great and is supper strong.

I've seen where some people have wrapped metal strips around and bolted threw the rudder but I don't want to do that. I'd worry about water intrusion.

[Skeep]

Chris, thanks. I'd missed that entry in your blog before. Your hull was a massive job! Mine is a bit mundane compared to Kraken. However, have continued to remove the ablative, each day, so that the process is bearable, or somewhat philosophical as I have stated somewhere before.

Dick brings up a good comment ref: barrier coat. If I am dry sailing ( trailer ) would the barrier coat be sufficient if I were to use an epoxy hard finish? I'm doing the consulting with West Marine now and may call the manufacturer today on this.

Ref Rudder: I re-inspected mine yesterday and concluded that I probably should do some preventive fairing-in with fiberglass to encourage longevity for the rudder. Movement is acceptable however; not prompting fear of the rudder shaft bouncing out of the gudgeon.

I've also read and re-read this from the Manual:

1. The rudder assembly construction description
2. Then noting "All CDs from 25D to 45" seems to exclude the small Tys but my gudgeon sounds exactly like these.

The rudder assembly consists of two pre-molded fiberglass half shells completely filled with a reinforced polyester compound. This compound surrounds the pre-formed rudder shaft creating a solid rudder of exceptional strength. The blade is further reinforced by two layers of glass tape applied to the shell joints.

On the Typhoon Weekender, Typhoon Daysailer and Cape Dory 22, the rudder shaft extends to the bottom of the rudder and into the heel fitting which is attached to the foot of the keel. All Cape Dorys from the 25D to the 45 have a bronze gudgeon casting imbedded in the bottom of the rudder to accept the bronze pintle casting and stainless steel pin which is attached to the keel. The pintle is set in polysulfide bedding compound and fastened onto the hull with bronze rods passing through the solid heel portion of the keel. The entire casting is then faired with polyester putty and glassed into the keel. This eliminates the electrolysis problem commonly found when stainless steel weldments are used in seawater.

[ariasis]

Sleep here are some close ups I took while down at the boat today just for reference. They don't show the process but you can see the results.

[Skeep]

Yes I see, nicely done. Your rudder as a graduated separation from one end to the other for whatever reason. Mine is pretty close and continuous from top to bottom. I'm mentally walking through the process of the wax paper and then the fiberglass process. I think I'll use a very fine cloth so that fairing-in will be easier. Thanks. Good pics.