Another CD 28 question

[Stan Wheatley]

I recently looked at a '79 CD 28 that had quite a bit of crazing in the gelcoat on the deck, however, it did not appear that any moisture had reached the balsa core. The broker implied that "they all do that" and said it was caused by Cape Dory applying the gelcoat too thick. Is this, in fact, a common defect? Is it merely cosmetic or something more sinister? What is the preferred method of dealing with this defect?

Thank you.



smw@capecod.net

[Larry DeMers]

Your broker is correct. Cape Dory applied their gel coat too thickly as stated. The slight crazings you see are cosmetic to begin with, but will progress over time into a crack over the crazed path..partially at first, finally over the majority of the craze. Water intrusion becomes a real problem at this point..I had this happen in my cockpit sole, which I had to replace. It was a combination of crazing leaking water and poor bedding of the binnacle and emergency rudder access port.

If you live in a state that freezes over winter, the problem just got worse due to the freeze-thaw cycle (which is what makes pebbles of large boulders).

A possible fix that I have tried this past summer..and I am not going to see the results of until many years from now, was to use Captain Tolly's Creeping Crack Crud. It's a fairly flexible (when cured) clear epoxy, that is applied to the crazing/crack. It is quite viscous, so it is drawn down into the craze/crack through capillary action, then hardens to a semi-soft sealer. One thing learned is to tape off the area to be free of the stuff before hand, clean up any spilled product immediately, use a small syringe needle to feed the spot getting the treatment.

My only question about this product is if it will remain flexible for say 5 years..or more. Because as soon as it gets rigid, it will begin to leak water into the crack, furthering the damage.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

I recently looked at a '79 CD 28 that had quite a bit of crazing in the gelcoat on the deck, however, it did not appear that any moisture had reached the balsa core. The broker implied that "they all do that" and said it was caused by Cape Dory applying the gelcoat too thick. Is this, in fact, a common defect? Is it merely cosmetic or something more sinister? What is the preferred method of dealing with this defect?

Thank you.

demers@sgi.com

[Chris Cram]

This is extremely common! You must get a surveyor to inspect every inch of the deck with a moisture meter to determine if there is any loss of structural integrity. Further look for gelcoat cracking below the water line this is another Cape Dory characteristic. If the coring on the deck is good then the cracks need to be repaired -- if some of the coring is wet then an extremely proficient figerglass repair man needs to look at the problem to determine how best to repair it (i.e. PRICE!!!!). I own a 25D with the cockpit problem and I have seen estimates from 900$ to 5000$ to repair it. My boat is currently for sale and this is the only reason prospective buyers have walked away.

Good Luck
Chris Cram



cccobx@prodigy.net

[Chris Cram]

At Larry's suggestion in earlier posts I went out and got myself a bottle of Capt. Tolleys. If it was a crack or even looked like a crack I put this stuff in there. But the point of this note is really to parrot Larry in saying --- if you do this --- to clean up well before it sets up. If you miss a spot when wiping up it will dry looking like a dirty little adhesive spot. You know, like after you pull up masking tape that has been there just a bit too long.

Let me tell you the story of a CD 28 I went to look at one time. It was dusty from sitting in the yard a long time but appeared to have been loved at one point it its life. The boat had many add ons and in all respects was a desireable boat except for one thing. The decks and the cockpit were all wet. The broker didn't even want to show it to me (spark of a concious?). He said they couldn't even find the owner who had obviously written off as an unsellable asset.

Chris




cccobx@prodigy.net

[John]

Chris:
With respect to your CD25D, how extensive is the "cockpit problem"? Is there delamination and is the core saturated?
John

This is extremely common! You must get a surveyor to inspect every inch of the deck with a moisture meter to determine if there is any loss of structural integrity. Further look for gelcoat cracking below the water line this is another Cape Dory characteristic. If the coring on the deck is good then the cracks need to be repaired -- if some of the coring is wet then an extremely proficient figerglass repair man needs to look at the problem to determine how best to repair it (i.e. PRICE!!!!). I own a 25D with the cockpit problem and I have seen estimates from 900$ to 5000$ to repair it. My boat is currently for sale and this is the only reason prospective buyers have walked away.

Good Luck
Chris Cram

broakmar@navix.net

[Mike Thompson]

When I bought HAVEN, the surveyor found the sole was wet
near the tiller post. I removed the teak plate and found
a very low quality job underneath. Water could easily get
inside the cockpit sole. I removed as much gooy black
balsa as I could and filled the space with resin/filler.
Seems ok now.

It would be good to open it up NOW and remove any wet
balsa you can reach so as to let it dry all winter under
a good cover.
How extensive is the crazing: 20 hairline cracks or 200
or 2000? If it's only 20 I would not worry too much.
The water may be getting in at the tiller post and not
via the hairline cracks.
Regards,
Mike
CD28 HAVEN

I recently looked at a '79 CD 28 that had quite a bit of crazing in the gelcoat on the deck, however, it did not appear that any moisture had reached the balsa core. The broker implied that "they all do that" and said it was caused by Cape Dory applying the gelcoat too thick. Is this, in fact, a common defect? Is it merely cosmetic or something more sinister? What is the preferred method of dealing with this defect?

Thank you.

tmike@ma.ultranet.com

[Russ Campbell]

Larry, Another thing that I have done instead of Capt. Tolleys is to put Locktite into the cracks. This is drawn into the cracks and then stiffens but stays rather flexible and serves to keep the water out. Cleanup is easy also.

Russ

Your broker is correct. Cape Dory applied their gel coat too thickly as stated. The slight crazings you see are cosmetic to begin with, but will progress over time into a crack over the crazed path..partially at first, finally over the majority of the craze. Water intrusion becomes a real problem at this point..I had this happen in my cockpit sole, which I had to replace. It was a combination of crazing leaking water and poor bedding of the binnacle and emergency rudder access port.

If you live in a state that freezes over winter, the problem just got worse due to the freeze-thaw cycle (which is what makes pebbles of large boulders).

A possible fix that I have tried this past summer..and I am not going to see the results of until many years from now, was to use Captain Tolly's Creeping Crack Crud. It's a fairly flexible (when cured) clear epoxy, that is applied to the crazing/crack. It is quite viscous, so it is drawn down into the craze/crack through capillary action, then hardens to a semi-soft sealer. One thing learned is to tape off the area to be free of the stuff before hand, clean up any spilled product immediately, use a small syringe needle to feed the spot getting the treatment.

My only question about this product is if it will remain flexible for say 5 years..or more. Because as soon as it gets rigid, it will begin to leak water into the crack, furthering the damage.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

I recently looked at a '79 CD 28 that had quite a bit of crazing in the gelcoat on the deck, however, it did not appear that any moisture had reached the balsa core. The broker implied that "they all do that" and said it was caused by Cape Dory applying the gelcoat too thick. Is this, in fact, a common defect? Is it merely cosmetic or something more sinister? What is the preferred method of dealing with this defect?

Thank you.

camroll@together.net

[Jay Hubbard]

I have a 79 CD 28 Hull # 245 and I can assure you the crazing cracks in the decks are probably the most common "potential problem" you will find. I looked at many 28's & 30 s over a 2 year period before buying mine this last summer and every one had some deck crazing. It's really only a problem if water has been getting in for a long time, has frozen or if it s been repaired incorrectly. A good surveyor with a moisture meter will find these areas easily.

Minor damage can be repaired quite easily but if there are any areas where the deck flexes or the meter shows an area much bigger than a saucer, I would get a couple of quotes from a pro.

You may also find moisture in the keel but this isn't found as often although I looked saw 1 boat that had a drain plug installed so that it would drain dry during the winter haul out.

You asked earlier about the engine and Got some really good advice.
I would only add one additional area to check and that is to check the exhaust system from the manifold aft. Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165 DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion.

Good luck with your search

JHH



mailbox1@worldnet.att.net

[Larry DeMers]

Russ,

Good Idea! Which grade of Locktite did you use? (Color of bottle is the key here). I bet that would work very well in the finer crazes, leaving Tolly's stuff for the bigger cracks in the gel coat. WHat color is the product when applied? I know the stuff I use around the boat is red, which is very difficult to undo. I suspect you must have used one of the softer versions, right?

Thanks for the hint! Will try it.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

Larry, Another thing that I have done instead of Capt. Tolleys is to put Locktite into the cracks. This is drawn into the cracks and then stiffens but stays rather flexible and serves to keep the water out. Cleanup is easy also.

Russ

Your broker is correct. Cape Dory applied their gel coat too thickly as stated. The slight crazings you see are cosmetic to begin with, but will progress over time into a crack over the crazed path..partially at first, finally over the majority of the craze. Water intrusion becomes a real problem at this point..I had this happen in my cockpit sole, which I had to replace. It was a combination of crazing leaking water and poor bedding of the binnacle and emergency rudder access port.

If you live in a state that freezes over winter, the problem just got worse due to the freeze-thaw cycle (which is what makes pebbles of large boulders).

A possible fix that I have tried this past summer..and I am not going to see the results of until many years from now, was to use Captain Tolly's Creeping Crack Crud. It's a fairly flexible (when cured) clear epoxy, that is applied to the crazing/crack. It is quite viscous, so it is drawn down into the craze/crack through capillary action, then hardens to a semi-soft sealer. One thing learned is to tape off the area to be free of the stuff before hand, clean up any spilled product immediately, use a small syringe needle to feed the spot getting the treatment.

My only question about this product is if it will remain flexible for say 5 years..or more. Because as soon as it gets rigid, it will begin to leak water into the crack, furthering the damage.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

I recently looked at a '79 CD 28 that had quite a bit of crazing in the gelcoat on the deck, however, it did not appear that any moisture had reached the balsa core. The broker implied that "they all do that" and said it was caused by Cape Dory applying the gelcoat too thick. Is this, in fact, a common defect? Is it merely cosmetic or something more sinister? What is the preferred method of dealing with this defect?

Thank you.

demers@sgi.com

[Russ Campbell]

Larry: I didn't even know there were different grades. Anyway the stuff I used was blue.

Russ

Russ,

Good Idea! Which grade of Locktite did you use? (Color of bottle is the key here). I bet that would work very well in the finer crazes, leaving Tolly's stuff for the bigger cracks in the gel coat. WHat color is the product when applied? I know the stuff I use around the boat is red, which is very difficult to undo. I suspect you must have used one of the softer versions, right?

Thanks for the hint! Will try it.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

Larry, Another thing that I have done instead of Capt. Tolleys is to put Locktite into the cracks. This is drawn into the cracks and then stiffens but stays rather flexible and serves to keep the water out. Cleanup is easy also.

Russ

Your broker is correct. Cape Dory applied their gel coat too thickly as stated. The slight crazings you see are cosmetic to begin with, but will progress over time into a crack over the crazed path..partially at first, finally over the majority of the craze. Water intrusion becomes a real problem at this point..I had this happen in my cockpit sole, which I had to replace. It was a combination of crazing leaking water and poor bedding of the binnacle and emergency rudder access port.

If you live in a state that freezes over winter, the problem just got worse due to the freeze-thaw cycle (which is what makes pebbles of large boulders).

A possible fix that I have tried this past summer..and I am not going to see the results of until many years from now, was to use Captain Tolly's Creeping Crack Crud. It's a fairly flexible (when cured) clear epoxy, that is applied to the crazing/crack. It is quite viscous, so it is drawn down into the craze/crack through capillary action, then hardens to a semi-soft sealer. One thing learned is to tape off the area to be free of the stuff before hand, clean up any spilled product immediately, use a small syringe needle to feed the spot getting the treatment.

My only question about this product is if it will remain flexible for say 5 years..or more. Because as soon as it gets rigid, it will begin to leak water into the crack, furthering the damage.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

camroll@together.net

[Larry DeMers]

"Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165
DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion."

On Lake Superior, the water is so cold that we run a 190 degree thermostat in order to keep engine temps up where they belong (higher temps are far more efficient, and prevent carbonizing of the interior passages of the exhaust system, as well as the Volvo Black Mustache on the transom). I do understand the danger you speak of however. I mention this only because there seems to be a dual danger that needs to be watched for and gaurded against. One way produces a buildup of salt and corrosion due to that malady, while the other way produces carbon buildup and plugging of the exhaust elbows with carbon, as well as smoking and poor efficiency, along with a transom wide smear of black oily soot.

So maybe 170 deg. would be a better compromise in salt?

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Snowbound on Lake Superior~~~

I have a 79 CD 28 Hull # 245 and I can assure you the crazing cracks in the decks are probably the most common "potential problem" you will find. I looked at many 28's & 30 s over a 2 year period before buying mine this last summer and every one had some deck crazing. It's really only a problem if water has been getting in for a long time, has frozen or if it s been repaired incorrectly. A good surveyor with a moisture meter will find these areas easily.

Minor damage can be repaired quite easily but if there are any areas where the deck flexes or the meter shows an area much bigger than a saucer, I would get a couple of quotes from a pro.

You may also find moisture in the keel but this isn't found as often although I looked saw 1 boat that had a drain plug installed so that it would drain dry during the winter haul out.

You asked earlier about the engine and Got some really good advice.
I would only add one additional area to check and that is to check the exhaust system from the manifold aft. Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165 DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion.

Good luck with your search

JHH

demers@sgi.com

[Clay Stalker]

Is it worth it to change from raw water cooling to fresh?? Do people ever do this?? What would it cost?
"Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165
DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion."

On Lake Superior, the water is so cold that we run a 190 degree thermostat in order to keep engine temps up where they belong (higher temps are far more efficient, and prevent carbonizing of the interior passages of the exhaust system, as well as the Volvo Black Mustache on the transom). I do understand the danger you speak of however. I mention this only because there seems to be a dual danger that needs to be watched for and gaurded against. One way produces a buildup of salt and corrosion due to that malady, while the other way produces carbon buildup and plugging of the exhaust elbows with carbon, as well as smoking and poor efficiency, along with a transom wide smear of black oily soot.

So maybe 170 deg. would be a better compromise in salt?

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Snowbound on Lake Superior~~~

I have a 79 CD 28 Hull # 245 and I can assure you the crazing cracks in the decks are probably the most common "potential problem" you will find. I looked at many 28's & 30 s over a 2 year period before buying mine this last summer and every one had some deck crazing. It's really only a problem if water has been getting in for a long time, has frozen or if it s been repaired incorrectly. A good surveyor with a moisture meter will find these areas easily.

Minor damage can be repaired quite easily but if there are any areas where the deck flexes or the meter shows an area much bigger than a saucer, I would get a couple of quotes from a pro.

You may also find moisture in the keel but this isn't found as often although I looked saw 1 boat that had a drain plug installed so that it would drain dry during the winter haul out.

You asked earlier about the engine and Got some really good advice.
I would only add one additional area to check and that is to check the exhaust system from the manifold aft. Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165 DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion.

Good luck with your search

JHH

cstalker@cheshire.net

[Jay Hubbard]

I don't know if it s cost effective on a 20 year old MD7a but I suspect it would be on some of the newer light weight engines.

It can be done and in fact I was recently aboard a CD 30 that had fresh water cooling on an MD7A.

Most of the installations on newer boats that I have seen were made not only to protect the engine but also for the continuous hot water when under way. I have often wondered how many of the owners run their engines just to get more hot water ! As Larry said here in the lakes we don't need to worry about salt we have to look at water temperature. Fortunately L Mich is usually about 15 Deg warmer than L Superior.


jhh

Is it worth it to change from raw water cooling to fresh?? Do people ever do this?? What would it cost?
"Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165
DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion."

On Lake Superior, the water is so cold that we run a 190 degree thermostat in order to keep engine temps up where they belong (higher temps are far more efficient, and prevent carbonizing of the interior passages of the exhaust system, as well as the Volvo Black Mustache on the transom). I do understand the danger you speak of however. I mention this only because there seems to be a dual danger that needs to be watched for and gaurded against. One way produces a buildup of salt and corrosion due to that malady, while the other way produces carbon buildup and plugging of the exhaust elbows with carbon, as well as smoking and poor efficiency, along with a transom wide smear of black oily soot.

So maybe 170 deg. would be a better compromise in salt?

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Snowbound on Lake Superior~~~

I have a 79 CD 28 Hull # 245 and I can assure you the crazing cracks in the decks are probably the most common "potential problem" you will find. I looked at many 28's & 30 s over a 2 year period before buying mine this last summer and every one had some deck crazing. It's really only a problem if water has been getting in for a long time, has frozen or if it s been repaired incorrectly. A good surveyor with a moisture meter will find these areas easily.

Minor damage can be repaired quite easily but if there are any areas where the deck flexes or the meter shows an area much bigger than a saucer, I would get a couple of quotes from a pro.

You may also find moisture in the keel but this isn't found as often although I looked saw 1 boat that had a drain plug installed so that it would drain dry during the winter haul out.

You asked earlier about the engine and Got some really good advice.
I would only add one additional area to check and that is to check the exhaust system from the manifold aft. Make sure the engine is being cooled within specs. (MAX 165 DEGREES). Running at higher temperatures with a raw "salt" water cooling builds up salts and causes excessive corrosion.

Good luck with your search

JHH

mailbox1@worldnet.att.net