Is my 150 genoa too much sail for my CD25D?

[David Morton]

I am relatively new to sailing and my CD25d, however, I have put in quite a few miles to date and have come to some observations. With my new 150 genoa and full main, I find I am unable trim appropriately for close hauling without experiencing excessive heel. Even in a 5kt and less breeze. I find myself compensating by easing the sheet and/or traveler and losing my ability to point. I know some will suggest reefing the main as way to decrease heel, but really? 5kts? I can furl up the jenny a bit, but I know I will lose shape, and, besides, what's the point of having a 150 if you always have to reef it to 130 in order to get the boat to do what I want? Off the wind, of course, things are different and I really appreciate the 150 on a reach, but with these southerly winds in Maine afternoons, I find it helpful to be able to sail as close to the wind as I can just to get out of my harbor.

By comparison, my buddy, Brian, has a CD28 and doesn't seem to suffer the way I do with his 150. Checking the boat stats, I realized that the CD28 has 70-75% more displacement and ballast, and only 30% more sail plan for its extra 3 feet of hull, than my CD25d. So, I'm thinking I got too much sail for my much lighter boat.

There is always the possibility that i'm just a lousy sailor! But, I would be curious to know how many CD25d sailors use a full 150 on a regular basis, and how your experience compares to mine, as I contemplate trading in for a 120/130 genoa.

[Jim Walsh]

I don't own a 25D but if that 150 is brand new I'd put a couple turns on the roller reefing and make the best use of my investment. If it is a used sail and just "new" to you then I'd contemplate getting something a little smaller as you have indicated. Being over-canvassed in 5 knots is a clear indication that the 150 is a bit much for your 25D.

[Gary H]

I have a 130 Genny on my 22D. Any wind over 10 knots requires excessive force to pull the sail in and on the tiller. I usually furl it down when the wind is 10 knots or higher. Unfortunately we don't win any races when the Genny is furled.

[RonSanga]

I fly a 150 (new) on my 25D always. I start reefing around 16 to 20 depending on how much fun I am looking for that day. I never bury the rails. I would check my rigging first to make sure that the mast is correctly positioned.
BTW are you using the inner track or outer as intended with that sail? do you have tell tails on your jib and can you watch them? Most folks sheet in far too much most of the time.

I have new Mack Sails on my 25D and I love them. I have no problems as you describe and I am in heavy winds a lot. The Admiral does NOT think anything over 20-25 degrees of heel
is funny. With my old original sails that were stretched out so much I had trouble keeping Wind Horse on her feet. Now I have control on my sail shape. I can flatten them or put a belly in as needed.

I recently helped another sailor rig his mast. He could hardly handle his 25 footer. His mast was actually leaning forward. He thinks he has a new boat now.

Ron Sanga
Wind Horse 25D

[David Morton]

Ron, I do run the sail on the outer track with the car mostly aft to add twist to the leech and flatten up the foot, especially when sailing upwind. At 10kts and close hauled, I usually have the jenny clew pretty tight up to the shrouds, with the lead car set aft to set the sail about 6 inches off the spreader, and just enough to get the windward telltales flying. And I will be heeled over a few inches below the rail. Seems like a lot of heel for 10 kts of wind. I'm just a little frustrated that I seem to have to sail almost always with some furl in the headsail. Perhaps mainsail reefing earlier might help.
It's difficult to check the mast rigging under load, especially when single-handed. But I have checked, several times, at the mooring and all seems to be ok. No obvious bending or excessive rake. Next time I'm out with crew I'll check while close hauled on either tack and make sure all is well.

[Gary H]

My mainsail has full battens. This year, I replaced them with tapered battens. It made a significant difference in the sail shape - moving the center of effort forward which I feel has reduced heeling and weather helm.

[Steve Darwin]

Hi David,

My foresails are all hank-on. I sail with the 100% working jib almost always. I use the 130 Genoa if the wind is very light (well below 10 kts) and likely to remain so all day, otherwise, the boat is overpowered by that big jib. I’ve come to consider the working sails (100% jib and full mainsail, 304 sq ft) as light-air sails on the 25D, the working jib and reefed mainsail as the “normal” sail plan (wind 15-20 kts) and the working jib alone as the “heavy weather” arrangement (wind over 22 kts). My working sails are relatively new, and, I believe, set quite well (Sperry Sails, Marion, Mass.). A sustained 20-degree heel is not unusual on a beat and does not significantly impact hull speed.

A comparison of Sail Area to Displacement might suggest why the larger Cape Dory boats are less tender than the 25D:
CD 25D: SA 304, D 5120, D/SA = 16.8
CD 28: SA 404, D 9000, D/SA = 22.28
CD 30: SA 437, D 10000, D/SA = 22.88

I’m not a naval architect or engineer, but, if the above calculations are correct, the 32% difference in D/SA between the 25D and the 28 might suggest that the 25D is either significantly over-canvassed (look at how tall that freakin' mast is relative to boat length) or under-ballasted compared with her larger sisters, without considering the effects of a 150% Genoa jib, which would increase the 25D’s sail area by, what, 30% over the area of the working sails?

A calculator at this web site http://www.sailingcourse.com/keelboat/c ... _ratio.htm converts displacement to hull volume to find the SA/D ratio, and the numbers are CD25D: 16.37, CD28: 14.94, and CD30: 15.06. The higher number for the 25D indicates that it is more like a “racer” than the other “cruiser” boats. Perhaps someone on this board has experience in intertreting these numbers and their meaning.

With respect to pointing ability, my Genoa, sheeted to the rail, does not point as high as the working jib, sheeted to the middle of the side deck. My forestay is quite taught and the jib luff has little sag, even in heavy weather. One school of thought has it that hank-on foresails promote higher pointing relative to roller-furled headsails, but whether or not this is true, I don’t know.

What is the area of a 25D’s 150% jib? It it’s close to 300 sq ft, you might consider sailing with the unreefed Genoa alone and forget the mainsail entirely, except in very light air.

- Steve

[barfwinkle]

Good morning all

Rhapsody has her 150 and main on most of the time (genny hanked on) andI don't sail with the rails in the water but there is significant heel. somewhere in the vicinity of 15 knts wind, I'll reef the main and everything settles down and is more managable.

Anything over 15 knts sustained, brings out the working jib and if the wind continues to build I'll break out the storm jib and double reef.

David its hard for me to understand your situation with the rail in the water in 5 kts wind even hard on the wind. Is there some kind of land mass/wind interaction causing the wind speed to pick up as you exit the harbor? Deflected wind as it rounds a point of land for example thus in that short stretch increasing wind speed?

Fair Winds

[RonSanga]

David, according to our owners manual the mast should be "plumb" or straight up and down (checked at the dock). The easiest way to check this is to hang something heavy (plumb bob) on your halyard just above the boom and let the boat settle. The weight should rest very near the mast.

Make sure that your out haul is tight so your main sail is flat and your back stay is set properly so you don't have head stay sag. Both halyards should be tight as well. All this moves the center of effort back.
The one thing I don't know is the angle of attack. If you are close hauled and the lee tell tails are stalled you are sheeted in too far compared to the angle of the wind.

I can't imagine the problem you are having at such low winds. At 5 knots I am hardly sailing, let alone heeled over. One seemingly silly question, how do you measure the wind? Are you sure it's only 5 knots?

I trailer Wind Horse several times a year so I tune my rig often. I have never experienced your problems.

I hope you figure out what's going on so you can enjoy your boat as it should be.

[David Morton]

I went out today in very light air, gusts to 5kts ?. Full main and full 150 worked well and certainly could have used more breeze. I never even got close to 10 degree heel, beating at about 3kts SOG. In retrospect, I can't imagine how a couple of more kts of wind can have such a dramatic increase in heel. I believe I probably am misjudging the wind speed or not recognizing the significant increase in apparent wind as I move around the cove and between land masses that must be funneling wind. All of what all of you are saying makes good sense, and I must be markedly underestimating the wind speed and not reefing appropriately. In fact, recently a friend with a good anemometer on his boat told me apparent wind was 17-18kts, while I was sailing trimmed for what I thought was a 10kt breeze. So, I'll reef a bit more aggressively and see how it goes. I've taken my working jib out of mothballs and think I might start using it again to see how it compares to the reefed 150. This learning curve is killing me!!

[Jim Davis]

Dave

I'm a bit conflicted over this:
I do run the sail on the outer track with the car mostly aft to add twist to the leech and flatten up the foot, especially when sailing upwind. At 10kts and close hauled, I usually have the jenny clew pretty tight up to the shrouds, with the lead car set aft to set the sail about 6 inches off the spreader, and just enough to get the windward telltales flying.

When close hauled the tell tales on both sides should be streaming aft. On your main watch the tell tales on the leech, they should be streaming straight out from the sail. You may have to carry a "bubble" in the luff of the main to achieve this. It is possible you are strapping things too tight.

[Bob Ohler]

I liked a 130 jib on my old 25D! I used it 80 or 90% of the time. At 15 knots of wind, I would take a reef and the boat sailed really well under this sail arrangement. I found the working jib was too small and I did not like the 150 when sailing alone. It was too much for me if the wind came up in a hurry.

[s2sailorlis]

This has been an interesting thread. As a new CD 22 owner (coming from 27 and 22 fin keel boats), I am curious what one accepts as "normal sailing behaviour" of these boats.

My sense was that given the hull profile of the CD design, she's going to sail with the rail close to the water anyway and then stiffen up. My last boat was a fin-keel performance cruiser, with a relatively flat underbody so it had a bit of form stability - but the CD's don't and I would expect them to sail with the rail within and a few inches of the water in 10-15 knots, unless your reef.

I have yet to put my 22 in the water because I am re-lapping/greasing the Spartan's - was fun getting them out but some magic penetrating oil and a small butane torch did the trick! And these were seacocks that haven't been touched in 15 years...

[Sea Hunt Video]

I am re-lapping/greasing the Spartan's - was fun getting them out but some magic penetrating oil and a small butane torch did the trick! And these were seacocks that haven't been touched in 15 years...

I would be grateful, if you have the time, if you could detail your process/procedure for removing, cleaning and lapping your seacocks. Rather than respond on this thread which is about Genoa and sails NOT seacocks, please post any comments on the following thread that is all about seacocks:

http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... s&start=15

I recently ordered some lapping compound from Spartan Marine along with some "grease". I hope to start this in mid-September when, hopefully, the temps will moderate a little.

Any advise, suggestions, etc. will be much appreciated.

[Steve Laume]

This has been an interesting thread. As a new CD 22 owner (coming from 27 and 22 fin keel boats), I am curious what one accepts as "normal sailing behaviour" of these boats.

My sense was that given the hull profile of the CD design, she's going to sail with the rail close to the water anyway and then stiffen up. My last boat was a fin-keel performance cruiser, with a relatively flat underbody so it had a bit of form stability - but the CD's don't and I would expect them to sail with the rail within and a few inches of the water in 10-15 knots, unless your reef.

I think you have a very firm grasp of the CD sailing characteristics. The hull designs are all very much the same with slight variations in the relative height of the top sides. Raven appears to have a rather modest amount of freeboard and yet it is very rare that her rail goes under. She heels quickly and then hardens up to the point that it is very difficult to drive the rail underwater. The only time I take green water onto the deck is when, larger, step, waves are involved. If you have water over the rail you should have already reefed. Cruising at hull speed sends a long and beautiful wave down the entire length of the hull which stays several inches below the rail.

Our boats don't sit up as straight as some of the newer designs but don't pound and are very stable once heeled into their comfort zone, Steve.