The mystery of water in the engine pan

[Sea Hunt Video]

I spent the day doing maintenance work on S/V Bali Ha'i. Winds were a steady E to ESE at 9-11 kts with not a single cloud in the sky. Humidity was at record lows. I am beginning to think I have my priorities wrong.

Anyways, I noticed something that I have previously observed after heavy rains and would like to find an answer/solution to, if possible.

We recently had some VERY heavy rains in the area of the sailing club. The engine pan managed to acquire about 3 quarts of water. It was fresh water but had a small amount of what appeared to be very light weight oil or grease (it formed a barely visible sheen on the surface). Light rain - small amount of water in the engine pan; heavy rain - large amount (3 qts) of water in the engine pan.

Conversely, the bilge was almost bone dry as were all other areas of S/V Bali Ha'i.

I am trying to determine the source of this fresh water and if there is anything I can do to "plug the leak". I have thought it might be coming from the cockpit lockers and somehow "gravity draining" to the engine sump pan. However, both cockpit lockers always seem to be dry.

I do not think it is the "stuffing box", shaft, etc. as the water only accumulates after a rain.

I would welcome any suggestions for the possible source of this water and preventative solutions.

Thanks.

[bhartley]

Next time you leave the boat take out the pelican vents on the stern deck if you have the little filler plugs you can put in or turn them both pointing aft (since you're on a mooring and they will be pointing downwind). Both of those vents empty right into the engine pan. Not much else does.

Alternatively (this one requires remembering to reverse the process before you start the engine next), you can take a goodly wad of paper towel and insert it into the engine room side of the vent hoses. If they're soaked or washed into the engine pan, you have your answer...

[Sea Hunt Video]

Hello Bly:

Thanks. Being the dummy that I am I had not thought of the vents. I do have the plastic covers/plugs and will try that.

Somehow, I posted my question in the "Buy/Sell" section. I have asked Cathy M. to move this thread to the general discussion CD section.

[RC James]

I have always been a little reticent to post this same question. Thanks, SeaHunt, for broaching the subject.

Have tried resealing the rings around the 2 aft vents, even went so far as to replace one of the rings and fittings. Water still ingressed--- always fresh/not Chesapeake Brown/---- after EVERY heavy rain storm.

Resealed the cockpit lockers (didn't seem a likely source, but hey-- it's a boat), and have been left with the very disconsolant thought that the source of the leak may somehow be tied to that less-than-perfectly-bonded teak block under the tiller (with all its attendant soggy fiberglass matting issues in the cockpit floor). Have tried caulking the instrument panel and putting a lexan cover over it w/hinges- all to no avail.

It's Fresh Water, and I'm docked in Salt Water, so it's more a mystery than an emergency.

Will continue to watch the Board to find the answer. (and, NO, I haven't tried the talcum powder route yet---- A little mystery in life can be a good thing.... and it seems that I may have found a renewable source of fresh water if I can get untied from the dock this year) RC

[Oswego John]

Hi RC and Robert,

There is something that I have done that has worked well for me. I have mentioned this "trick"? before but if it works for you, it is well worth restating.

I go to the food preparation section of a supermarket or Wally World and buy a pack or two of food coloring. I mix one color at a time in a pail and, using a large cellulose sponge, slosh it on over a particular area where I suspect the leak might be. When a large amount of that first color has had a chance to leak in, I check the pan for traces of colored water.

If no water of that first color shows up, I mix a batch of a second, different color and move on to another area of suspect. For instance, if I use a second color for the port seat lockers, I will use a third color for the stb'd lockers, etc, down the line.

This method of using colored water can come in handy in searching for cabin leaks and bilge water due to faulty seals in hardware, windows and hatch openings.

Good luck,
O J

[Sea Hunt Video]

I have always been a little reticent to post this same question. Thanks, SeaHunt, for broaching the subject.

RC: Thank you for your kind words. As the board knows, I go where others fear to tread.

I spent a few hours today researching the issue of mystery water in the engine sump area. Turns out there are several areas for water to allow gravity to take its natural course.

Bly, I agree with you that a possible source may be the air vent cowlings. However, in carefully examining mine, they seem pretty snug and have a tight fit. Each vent has a white hose with a wire spring inside. Not sure what the white material is but it is not very durable. Both of these hoses lead all the way forward and, if water were in them I think they would drip/empty into the bilge, not the engine sump. Today, the bilge was almost bone dry again despite a few days of torrential rains. Engine sump again had about 3 1/2 quarts of fresh water.

I did turn both vent cowlings so they are facing aft. I will try to remember to do this after each day sailing. These days, memory is not my strong suit.

I also climbed into the port side cockpit locker. Too bad someone didn't have a videocam of me trying to gracefully squeeze my fat Italian body into (and fortunately out of) the locker. There is a small (perhaps 1" diam) hole in the forward corner of this locker at the bottom of the locker "wall". If you poured water into the locker it would drain through this hole and then, because of the configuration of the hull, engine sump, etc. it would conveniently gravity drain right into the engine sump. The only way water can get in and go thru this hole is by going "up and over" the teak sides (~3") of the locker cover. This does not seem feasible but possible I guess. If the cowlings do not prove to be the cause I will try OJ's suggestion of colored water and pouring it over the closed cockpit locker cover to see if I can make it go into the locker, thru the hole and into the sump.

Not sure if this hole in the locker wall is "factory" or if a PO drilled it. I do seem to recall that one time I went aboard shortly after a heavy rain and a couple of rags in the locker were damp. I did not pay much attention at the time. Dummy me.

Another possibility is the tiller base. I had this issue with S/V Tadpole. I solved it by sealing the teak base with BoatLife. Today I could not see exactly where water would gain access to the sump if coming thru the tiller base. I will climb into the locker the next time and specifically inspect this area. I may try OJ's suggestion again and pour colored water around the tiller base to see if it seeps into the sump.

Boats are fun

[Russell]

Bly, I agree with you that a possible source may be the air vent cowlings. However, in carefully examining mine, they seem pretty snug and have a tight fit. Each vent has a white hose with a wire spring inside. Not sure what the white material is but it is not very durable. Both of these hoses lead all the way forward and, if water were in them I think they would drip/empty into the bilge, not the engine sump. Today, the bilge was almost bone dry again despite a few days of torrential rains. Engine sump again had about 3 1/2 quarts of fresh water.

Did you look to see exactly where the vent hose emptied? Or are you just assuming they go to the bilge? The cowls on the aft deck are specifically for engine room cooling and should empty into the engine room somewhere, which would indeed dump the water in the engine pan. Most CDs are built this way and given the lack of a dorade on these cowls they to tend to result in water ending up under the engine.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Russell:

On S/V Bali Ha'i the "hoses" are very long and "flimsy" at best. I am not sure of the material. It feels almost like paper with a "slinky"-like wire running elliptically the length of the hose. One hose snakes along the starboard side of the engine; the other snakes along the port side of the engine. The starboard hose "ends" just forward of the engine pan and sort of on top of the holding tank; the portside hose comes under the alternator belt and "ends" on the holding tank also. The openings for both hoses are facing forward. I generally run the engine with the engine access panel OFF to insure that fresh air circulates as much as possible in the engine compartment and cabin.

I may well be wrong but it seems unlikely that water could go from either or both of these hose openings back into the engine pan.

One possibilty that I am considering is that one or both of these hoses have tears in the "paper" type material and that water is gravity dripping from the hose, thru these tears and into the engine pan. I tried to inspect the hose material yesterday but had limited access and visibility. I do NOT want to remove them and either inspect and repair or replace. I think it would be very difficult for me to gain the access needed to properly route these hoses.

While it is a little annoying, it is only of concern if we have heavy sustained rains for 2-3 days in a row and I am not able to go aboard to remove the engine pan water.

I am becoming a believer in a saying posted by another poster on this board that goes something like "I used to sail boats and work on stuff; then I bought a sailboat. Now I just work on stuff."

[bhartley]

Those white hoses are the ventilation for the engine -- a guzziner and a guzzouter. They are both should be going to the "engine room". Promise. The starboard side is easily accessible from the cabin engine door and is likely attached to other hoses with zip ties. If the zip ties have been cut at some point, the hose may actually be hanging in a different position or lying down. The (The one on the port side is drooping in the photo and out of position because the photo was taken when the pumpout fitting in the cockpit was being rebedded. It had to get moved to get access to the hose clamps.)



Seepage around the deck flange would be minimal. The 3"+ opening is a much more likely culprit. Again, I suggest you tuck a wad of paper towel gently into the engine end when you think rain is coming. Don't forget to remove it before starting the engine! Three quarts is a lot of water in one even heavy rain storm. You are looking for a big hole (like the vents). Unless your cockpit scuppers are backing up and filling the cockpit with water, the rudder post is unlikely to allow that much water in.

Bly

[Sea Hunt Video]

Bly:

Thanks for the photo You have essentially what I have. It looks like the same material for the hoses and elliptical "slinky" wire as well. My starboard side and portside hoses are both sort of "lying down" and "end" pretty much on top of the holding tank where the holding tank "air vent" hose and intake and pumpout hoses are located. Again, I think if water were to drip all the way to the "end" of each engine air hose the water would drip down into the bilge NOT the engine pan area. Again, I may well be wrong.

What I may try is either stuffing towels into the air vent cowels at the stern or just removing them and putting the "lids" back on. Given my deteriorating memory skills, I will probably "see" the lack of vents more easily than "seeing" paper towels stuffed into the engine room end of the hoses.

While 3 1/2 qts is indeed a lot of water, we had 4 days of very heavy but much needed rain (it pretty much rained all day, every day).

[hilbert]

I would expand on Bly's suggestion and tape small squares of paper towels onto all surfaces. The bottom of the cockpit sole, around hoses and wires, on the engine and just about any path that water could concievably follow to the pan. If you follow O J' suggestion to use food dye, it should show up well on the paper.

Even if none of the pieces are dampened, you will have eliminated many of the likely paths.

Jonathan

[Steve Laume]

I have no idea where your leak might be but I can give you some other advice.

If you do get around to replacing the dryer vent type hose, consider dust collector hose instead. There are various grades so you might want to actually handle it before buying. You can find it at any large store that handles wood working equipment. The stuff I got is much more substantial than the original.

On Raven the intake hose is run forward to just below the alternator. This helps to cool it as well as getting the cool air to the forward part of the engine compartment. The exhaust hose on the starboard side is mounted up higher and aft of the engine. I also installed an exhaust fan in this line so I can force air through the engine compartment. I hate the sound of the thing but it does help vent off hot air before and right after we shut things down. I don't usually run it all the time. Have both hoses terminate at the same location, low in the boat doesn't seem like it would make for good air circulation.

As for remembering those paper towels or anything else for that matter, I would never leave it up to my memory alone. I always store the ignition key right on top of the seawater intake seacock handle. The engine never gets started without opening it and it gets closed when the key gets put away. This winter I had a bonding wire clipped to the propeller shaft. I know I would have started the engine with that thing clipped on there if I left it to memory. What I did to insure this didn't happen was to put a piece of masking tape on the key. I was kind of surprised to see it there when I went to start the engine! This would also work as a reminder for you to take out the paper towels. It is only when you have to start writing on the tape to remind you of why it is there that you should start to worry, Steve.

[Russell]

For what its worth, when I replaced my vent duct hose (which probably needs doing on any CD that hasnt had it done already, the origonal stuff is not durable). I used this: http://www.tridentmarine.com/stage/ventduct.htm the second one down, the blue stuff, "polyduct", it isnt cheap but its crush resistant and much more durable material then typical vent hose.

Robert, your vent hose probably lost some cable ties at some point allowing it to sag down and into the position you currently find it. Since its meant to ventilate the engine room, the location yours currently is in wont allow it to optimally do its job. Though its probably not a big deal, I ran my boat for almost a year with all the vent hose totally ripped out with no issue.

[hilbert]

I understand the need to ventilate the space for gasoline engines and the desire to mitigate temperature in general, but I question the reward vs. risk of having these engine cowls. At least with my boat, the factory did not take measures to protect the core. When I removed them a couple weeks ago, I found the core had rotted away due to water intrusion.

This is how it looked when I removed them:


Following the example of the FeNIX, I have filled them in:

[Sea Hunt Video]

Hilbert:

My vents and cowlings are in reasonably good condition. I examined them in July 2011 and again in October before transport. The deck around them seems solid; the vent rings are clean and sturdy; the cowlings are also clean and sturdy.

Fortunately, today we are having yet another South Florida "gully washer". Having turned the cowlings to face the stern this should be an initial test of whether it is simply the cowlings where rain water is ingressing or elsewhere. Of course, given the strength of today's rains and the winds, I guess it is possible water could enter even when the cowlings are facing "downwind".

I have found a new mission in life I shall boldy go where others may fear to tread. I intend to locate the source of this unwanted fresh water intrusion and stop it Like Sherlock Holmes before me I shall systematically eliminate sources one by one, whilst whatever remains, however implausible, shall be possible. Failure is not an option.

Russell, thanks for the link. I have noted it in my files. This Fall I shall replace the vent hoses as part of other maintenance and upgrade work I plan to do.