Spongy Cockpit Sole

[Dick Kobayashi]

The cockpit sole my 25D is very soft and spongy, has been for years, and now I feel I can defer addressing it no longer. Question: Does it make sense to cut a square hole and insert an inspection port of significant size. There would be a two part objective: 1) facilitating easier access to the back of the engine and shaft. and 2) simplifying the sole repair. On the later point, i would seem easier to cut a rectangular hole of the port/access panel and then pull out all the soaked and deteriorated core, fill with epoxy and then install the port. Are the access ports sturdy enough to stand on, is the camber of the sole a problem, are there other issues I should think about.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Dick:

Great post and very timely.

I have exactly the same issue on S/V Bali Ha'i. There is a soft area about 2'8" x 1'6" on the starboard side of the cockpit sole. I have talked with several "fiberglass" folks about repairs. Most have recommended cutting off the top layer of fiberglass and then removing ALL of the balsa core from the cockpit sole and replacing with one of several different "fillers" that I now do remember the name of. They would then reattach the top layer of fiberglass.

A while back someone posted about installing an inspection port in the cockpit. I think someone posted a photo of it. There may have been 2 different threads on this that sort of merged. As you know, I am less than skilled at searching this board for prior posts. I think I also posted with a question about the inspection port and how water was drained from the lip, etc. If I recall correctly (unlikely) the poster said he ran a small hose line from each side of the inspection port into his scupper drain hoses.

I think a square/rectangular one would be better than a round one - more access space.

I know nothing about sturdiness, etc. but I would think that when the balsa core has been removed that "cross ties" could be installed and epoxyed in around where the inspection port would go so as to provide additional support.

I had planned to do this work this Spring. As days progress I am thinking now of waiting through the end of the upcoming "H" season and doing this job when I haul out this Fall to repair/replace/maintain the seacocks, paint the topsides, etc.

Please keep us posted on any developments or decisions you make.

Thanks,

[Joe Myerson]

Dick and Robert,

I think an inspection port would be a wonderful bonus to repairing the spongy cockpit sole.

Not only would it make engine maintenance easier, but it would make it possible for a human being to access to tranny and the shaft coupling.

Please take photos.

--Joe

[bhartley]

My main concern on the hatch would be the camber of the cockpit sole on the 25D as it is pretty substantial. Installing a traditional grid-style teak cockpit grate in Pyxis (25D) and the camber was a major problem in spite of lots of shimming, etc. The grate was returned to the SS23 cockpit where it is a lot happier flat.

When I researched access hatches a few years back (my husband is NOT happy in that locker working on the engine/tranny), the plastic hatches large enough to make a difference had not gotten good reviews for waterproof-ness when installed horizontally. The metal ones were WAY out of my price range. There may be improved models available by now.

As for the actual recore, it is very straight forward from the top. Do not bother trying to save the top piece. Two layers of biax will be much faster, easier and more solid. If the area covers more than 50% of the cockpit, I would do the coring in sections to make it easier to work and avoid having to support the underlying layer of glass. You will be on your hands and knees and need room to maneuver. Once the balsa step is complete, you can use larger pieces of biax (especially if you cover the seats with plastic so you can use them as a work surface for wetting out the biax.).

Bly

[Oswego John]

Dick and Robert,

What we used to do to repair a spongy section of deck is very similar to what you mention. Set your saw's depth of cut to just deep enough to saw through the upper skin of the deck. Be careful so that when cutting through a contoured deck, the saw blade would avoid touching the bottom deck skin.

The camber of the sole can be maintained if the bottom section of the sole hasn't been disturbed. After the top surface has been sawn through, scrape out and discard all of the punky filler. We hardly ever reused the top skin. We did as Bly suggests and lay down several plys of Biaxial glass on top of the new filler. By using new fiberglass, the new top surface will overlay the old top layer and tie the new glass to the old as a single unit Polyester will do but epoxy is stronger.

Robert, I did post info and a sketch as to how we used to make a bilge access of any size needed. You can view this post and sketch by going to the CD home page and clicking on "search" on the right side.

Enter "access" in the keyword space. Enter "Oswego John" on the author line. Scroll down.

On my computer the post I'm talking about is the second post down from the top. The title of the post is "What To Do About Oversized Access Hole". It is dated 11/11/11.

Take care,
O J

[bhartley]

If you like toys (aka. power tools), I would highly recommend an oscillating saw for the job. I am far to cheap to buy a Fein Multimaster and Santa never brought me one. I have been very happy with the Rockwell I got a Lowes. I have only used 3 blades in during a total recore on a 25D. It is far better than a circular saw for getting to the edges and the bonus is that it does a wonderful job getting up the balsa bits and pieces left behind. There is no issue with cutting through too far either. (Okay, you can mess up anything, but you would really have to try!) You can also use the sanding attachments for the toe rails...

[Oswego John]

OOPS, I goofed.

In my earlier post today, I said that after the searched posts appeared, you should scroll down to the wrong post. What you should do is scroll down to the post titled "Hole In The Deck" dated 11/11/11.

The sketch is at the very bottom of the post.

Sorry,
O J

Hey, we always considered it isn't a mistake if you catch it yourself. If your boss catches it, then it is a mistake.

[Randy Capstick]

When I bought my CD28, the cockpit sole was soaked. Water had entered through the tiller base screws which were screwed directly into the balsa and not into the solid area surrounding the tiller. I decided to open the cockpit sole to allow access to the rear of the engine, transmission and prop shaft. I carefully outlined the area to be cut out, eventually enlarging the cutout forward of a wooden cross brace beneath the CD28's forward floor. I used a Roto Zip and went through both fiberglass layers and balsa in one pass. It was a slow process and took several bits to complete the cut. I left about a 1" border along the sides of the cockpit nonskid. It was very unnerving to tear the cockpit sole apart, and after removing the cockpit sole cutout, I was amazed at how solid these boats were built. The sole was a full inch thick! I hope these pictures are visible...Click on them for a larger view.





At the rear of the cockpit, I just removed the upper layer of fiberglass and scraped out the wet balsa. I enlarged the solid area around the tiller base and replaced the remaining space with fresh end grain balsa. I built up the top layer with several layers of fiberglass and faired to match the original deck camber.





The edges surrounding the hatch cutout area were filled with solid epoxy. I cutout a plywood frame to the exact final hatch size and screwed it to the cockpit from above. Then I used a router to cut the hatch perimeter to exactly match the plywood frame. The inside area of the plywood cutout would then be the exact size of the final hatch and I used it as a mold to build the hatch from scratch.



The hatch would need to be supported from below and I used Marine plywood to create a "ledge" for the hatch to rest on. This ledge was bolted and epoxied to the underside perimeter of the hatch opening. I also embedded threaded bolts in this ledge, so the hatch could be bolted down. I thought about putting a rubber gasket around the ledge to lessen water entry, but find that very little water gets through.







I hope this helps with your project planning,

Randy

[Gary H]

When I re-cored the rear deck of my Typhoon, I used a 1/8" router bit to cut out the top layer of fiberglass. It made a very clean cut and it is easy to run it along a guide and make 90 degree turns. It retained the camber of the rear deck and I was able to epoxy it back in place very nicely.

[Duncan]

... I decided to open the cockpit sole to allow access to the rear of the engine, transmission and prop shaft...

Randy, that is a sweet job you did, and great documentation, too.
For those who may be less handy than you are (like me), I've seen a very nice commercial-grade cockpit hatch made by Anchor Hatches, in Cap-Pele, New Brunswick. They appear to use best-quality materials and have excellent workmanship.
I know they ship to the US, because the one I saw had been ordered (for $400) through someone in Fairhaven MA. It was installed in a Friendship Sloop, and was not far from Dick K, in the neighbourhood of Mattapoisett, MA.

[bamabratsche]

I second the advice to use an oscillating tool. I recored about 2/3rds of my Typhoon's aft deck, and am working on doing the same to a big section of the coachroof and the cabin sole right now. Especially on a small boat like the Typhoon, there are places where getting a circular saw into tight corners is almost impossible, but the Dremel Multi-max I got makes it much easier. Cutting out the remaining core after you've gotten the top skin off is also extremely straightforward. It really wasn't that expensive, and I think Harbor Freight sells an even cheaper one if you think you won't use it much. Ok, commercial over.

One thing I would think about is whether adding a hatch would impact your boat's resale value. I looked at a beautiful Typhoon that had been meticulously restored, but the owner had also "improved" it by adding large hatches to the foredeck and cockpit sole, and an additional thru-hull for an automatic bilge pump. Not having the expertise to know whether or not that was all structurally fine, or would weaken some areas, or whether everything had been well sealed, I decided to go with one that was in worse shape but closer to the original condition. This of course assumes you might sell your boat eventually.....

[hilbert]

Cockpit repair was not high on my list, until I discovered that water was dripping on the engine (an improperly installed inspection hatch by the PO). During the repair, I considered adding a better inspection hatch, but good quality hatches are expensive and I wasn't confident that I could create a mechanical seal of my own design, that would stand the test of time.

The previous post have been informative. A few thoughts that I would add for consideration:

• I used 3/8 inch Core-Cell, a closed cell foam for the core (total area was approximately 12 ft2).
  I used sandbags to press elements together while epoxying and it was necessary to support the cockpit floor from below, while doing the repairs.
  I reused the top piece of fiberglass and then epoxied down increasing width of fiberglass tape over the seams and finally new cloth over the entire surface.
  I used Epoxy5050, which is easy to work with and reasonable at ~$64 a gallon.
  Tools for this job: I used a 3" mini circular saw from Craftsman to cut the top, the Harbor Freight oscillating tool to clean out the old core, a 4 1/2" angle grinder with a flap pad and an oscillating sander.
  A successful outcome was the result of perseverance and not experience (I made a lot of mistakes).

Jonathan

[frankfurder]

Has anyone installed one of the Bomar access hatches in the cockpit sole to eliminate wet core and improve access?

They appear to be strong enough for foot traffic and not very expensive, I would imagine some additional structural support is needed before mounting.

[Carl Thunberg]

I had a hatch in the cockpit sole of my former CD30. I didn't find it very useful at all. Unless you can get your shoulders through the hatch, it's very limiting what you can accomplish through the hatch. For most jobs I had to go in through the seat locker anyway. About all it was good for was handing tools back and forth. Think very seriously what it is you're hoping to accomplish by installing a hatch. You might find it wasn't worth the effort. Like most projects, planning for it should start with a desired outcome and then work backwards from that outcome to the best way to accomplish it.

[barfwinkle]

In line with Carl's comment. Several years back I had a hatch installed in Rhapsody's cabin sole. What a great idea and it does hold some stuff, however, it is not worth it if I do a cost/benefit analyses, the space gained was not worth the cost.

Think long and hard about the installation.

Fair Winds
(from sunny Oklagoma, where the trees are leafing, the daffodils are blooming, and it would appear that Spring is Sprung)