I have decided to install an autopilot (tiller pilot) on my CD27. I know the ST2000 is certainly adequate in strength to handle the 7500 pound displacement of the CD27. But I don't like the idea of it being cockpit mounted and taking up seating space. The ST4000 Plus is a tiller pilot that is installed below decks with just the LED readout and push button control unit sort of flush mounted to a surface in the cockpit. The ST4000 Plus is designed for larger boats and obviously will have no trouble handling a boat of Sine Qua Non's displacement. The promotional literature says that the ST4000 Plus is designed for "easy owner installation". We've all heard that one before. Of course the 4000 is more expensive. Leaving cost difference aside, my questions: How easy is it to install the ST4000? Those of you that have either the ST 4000 Plus or the ST2000, do you like it? Are they reliable? Any tips or secrets would be greatly appreciated.
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
Warren,
I installed an AutoHelm 4000+ Wheelpilot on Hanalei this spring. It takes a little crawling around ( I would imagine a little more to install a below decks tiller pilot), a little reading, a little planning, a few tools, but installation is straight forward and really not too difficult. As far as reliability, it's great. Don't know how we did without it particularly on a long motor sail. There is a nice advantage to the installation with only the drive motor on the helm and the LCD control panel behind me on the bulkhead.
If you are at all handy, I'd say go for the 4000+. IMHO...
D. Stump
Hanalei CD-30
I installed an AutoHelm 4000+ Wheelpilot on Hanalei this spring. It takes a little crawling around ( I would imagine a little more to install a below decks tiller pilot), a little reading, a little planning, a few tools, but installation is straight forward and really not too difficult. As far as reliability, it's great. Don't know how we did without it particularly on a long motor sail. There is a nice advantage to the installation with only the drive motor on the helm and the LCD control panel behind me on the bulkhead.
If you are at all handy, I'd say go for the 4000+. IMHO...
D. Stump
Hanalei CD-30
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Scott Ritchey
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
The rudder post in CD27 passes through a tube from the hull to the cockpit sole. To install any below deck autopilot, you will have to cut that tube and install a stuffing box to stop the water. You will have to install an arm or quadrant in the rudder shaft that will probaly require you to machine a keyway on the shaft (not sure this can be done with the rudder installed). Removing the rudder is not trivial, probably the easiest way is to drop the rudder while the boat is in the sling of the travel lift. If the boat is on the hard, you need to dig a hole to drop the rudder. There is more, but this is not an easy job. If you had a wheel, the quadrant would already be on the rudder shaft.
On the other hand, the above deck install is almost trivial. You drill into the tiller and epoxy a short 1/4 in post with a "ball" at the end into the tiller. Then you either drill and epoxy a "socket" in the seat or screw one of the bracket systems to the seat or combing. Finally, you need to run 12v power to a socket near the unit (easy in the 27, the unit is right over the batteries). The only hard part is deciding exactly where to put the socket and ball to achieve the right geometry.
Another advantage of the above-deck setup is you can manually disengage just by lifting the unit off the tiller. Instantly and completely. Unless you plan a lot of extended offshore work, I wouldn't mess with a below-deck installation. Installing below deck gets the servo out of the weather but it costs a lot more and uses a lot more power. But then you store the above-deck unit in the cabin most of the time, so weathering isn't a real factor. How much do you sail? You might even consider an Autohelm 800 or Navico TP 100 which will work fine motoring or sailing to winward under steady conditions.
RitcheyVS@aol.com
On the other hand, the above deck install is almost trivial. You drill into the tiller and epoxy a short 1/4 in post with a "ball" at the end into the tiller. Then you either drill and epoxy a "socket" in the seat or screw one of the bracket systems to the seat or combing. Finally, you need to run 12v power to a socket near the unit (easy in the 27, the unit is right over the batteries). The only hard part is deciding exactly where to put the socket and ball to achieve the right geometry.
Another advantage of the above-deck setup is you can manually disengage just by lifting the unit off the tiller. Instantly and completely. Unless you plan a lot of extended offshore work, I wouldn't mess with a below-deck installation. Installing below deck gets the servo out of the weather but it costs a lot more and uses a lot more power. But then you store the above-deck unit in the cabin most of the time, so weathering isn't a real factor. How much do you sail? You might even consider an Autohelm 800 or Navico TP 100 which will work fine motoring or sailing to winward under steady conditions.
Warren Kaplan wrote: I have decided to install an autopilot (tiller pilot) on my CD27. I know the ST2000 is certainly adequate in strength to handle the 7500 pound displacement of the CD27. But I don't like the idea of it being cockpit mounted and taking up seating space. The ST4000 Plus is a tiller pilot that is installed below decks with just the LED readout and push button control unit sort of flush mounted to a surface in the cockpit. The ST4000 Plus is designed for larger boats and obviously will have no trouble handling a boat of Sine Qua Non's displacement. The promotional literature says that the ST4000 Plus is designed for "easy owner installation". We've all heard that one before. Of course the 4000 is more expensive. Leaving cost difference aside, my questions: How easy is it to install the ST4000? Those of you that have either the ST 4000 Plus or the ST2000, do you like it? Are they reliable? Any tips or secrets would be greatly appreciated.
Warren
RitcheyVS@aol.com
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Warren Kapaln
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
Scott,
You scared the crap out of me. I get the chills every time I hear the words "stern tubes" and "stuffing boxes"! Nosirree! I'm not an offshore sailor and I don't expect to use an autopilot that much. The idea of the Autohelm ST4000 plus is already beginning to "dwindle" in my mind. I think I'll stick with the cockpit mounted unit. Even though it will take up some seating space, in reality, probably the only times I'll be using the autopilot is when I'm alone anyway..so I can "afford" to give up the space.
Thanks for the input!
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
You scared the crap out of me. I get the chills every time I hear the words "stern tubes" and "stuffing boxes"! Nosirree! I'm not an offshore sailor and I don't expect to use an autopilot that much. The idea of the Autohelm ST4000 plus is already beginning to "dwindle" in my mind. I think I'll stick with the cockpit mounted unit. Even though it will take up some seating space, in reality, probably the only times I'll be using the autopilot is when I'm alone anyway..so I can "afford" to give up the space.
Thanks for the input!
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
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Mark Yashinsky
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
What is the below deck layout for the rudder on a cd30??? Can we have details on how the ram on the Autohelm get attached to rudder shaft??? What had to be altered, dropped, removed, added, etc on Hanalei??? How does the tiller "feel" when steering by hand??? Does the ram give a lot of resistance, since it is not disconnected from the tiller like the 2000 is.
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: ST4000+ WHEELPILOT......
Mark,
Sorry if I misled you. Hanalei has the 4000+ wheelpilot, not the tillerpilot. The wheelpilot drive is attached to the helm, wired through the guard; control head is in the aft bulkhead of the cockpit, no wires in the cockpit area at all. Feel of the helm when wheelpilot is disconnected is the same as if no pilot were attached. Don't know how a heavier system with a below decks ram would feel, and I don't know if there is room for one down there either. Hope this helps....
D. Stump
Hanalei
Sorry if I misled you. Hanalei has the 4000+ wheelpilot, not the tillerpilot. The wheelpilot drive is attached to the helm, wired through the guard; control head is in the aft bulkhead of the cockpit, no wires in the cockpit area at all. Feel of the helm when wheelpilot is disconnected is the same as if no pilot were attached. Don't know how a heavier system with a below decks ram would feel, and I don't know if there is room for one down there either. Hope this helps....
D. Stump
Hanalei
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Scott Ritchey
CORRECTION: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, C
Disregard everything after Hello.
First, I need to apologise to you and Autohelm. I am at least one generation out of date on Autohelm model numbers (just looked at West catalog). It seems that the ST1000 is like the old 800 and the new ST2000 is a beefed up version of the ST1000. Also, the actuator of the new ST4000 appears to be above deck (no picture, but I think only the compass and maybe control electronics may be below decks). The model I was thinking of must be called the ST6000 and ST7000 now. Finally, I don't see Navico listed, so maybe they are no longer made.
Still, there's a good argumet for the simple ST2000 which is all one piece with one wire (some of the multi-box arrangements can becluttered with wires).
Also, I had autopilots on my last three boats (Catalina 27, Columbia 8.7 and CD27)and I recommend them highly. They are great for single handing ... just motor into the wind under autopilot while you prep and raise sails. Theye are also great for inexperienced crew. Instead of hollering at your crew from the far end of the boat (which gets folks edgy) stroll up to the foredeck with them and demonstrate ... cool calm collected.
First, I need to apologise to you and Autohelm. I am at least one generation out of date on Autohelm model numbers (just looked at West catalog). It seems that the ST1000 is like the old 800 and the new ST2000 is a beefed up version of the ST1000. Also, the actuator of the new ST4000 appears to be above deck (no picture, but I think only the compass and maybe control electronics may be below decks). The model I was thinking of must be called the ST6000 and ST7000 now. Finally, I don't see Navico listed, so maybe they are no longer made.
Still, there's a good argumet for the simple ST2000 which is all one piece with one wire (some of the multi-box arrangements can becluttered with wires).
Also, I had autopilots on my last three boats (Catalina 27, Columbia 8.7 and CD27)and I recommend them highly. They are great for single handing ... just motor into the wind under autopilot while you prep and raise sails. Theye are also great for inexperienced crew. Instead of hollering at your crew from the far end of the boat (which gets folks edgy) stroll up to the foredeck with them and demonstrate ... cool calm collected.
Warren Kapaln wrote: Scott,
You scared the crap out of me. I get the chills every time I hear the words "stern tubes" and "stuffing boxes"! Nosirree! I'm not an offshore sailor and I don't expect to use an autopilot that much. The idea of the Autohelm ST4000 plus is already beginning to "dwindle" in my mind. I think I'll stick with the cockpit mounted unit. Even though it will take up some seating space, in reality, probably the only times I'll be using the autopilot is when I'm alone anyway..so I can "afford" to give up the space.
Thanks for the input!
Warren
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Bill
Re: CORRECTION: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilot
The Navico's were bought out by Simrad. West Marine doesnt carry them at this time....Dont know why!!!! Practical sailor rated both of the Navicos above the autohelms a few years back....
BS
cd25d@rhapsodysails.com
BS
Scott Ritchey wrote: First, I need to apologise to you and Autohelm. I am at least one generation out of date on Autohelm model numbers (just looked at West catalog). It seems that the ST1000 is like the old 800 and the new ST2000 is a beefed up version of the ST1000. Also, the actuator of the new ST4000 appears to be above deck (no picture, but I think only the compass and maybe control electronics may be below decks). The model I was thinking of must be called the ST6000 and ST7000 now. Finally, I don't see Navico listed, so maybe they are no longer made.
Still, there's a good argumet for the simple ST2000 which is all one piece with one wire (some of the multi-box arrangements can becluttered with wires).
Also, I had autopilots on my last three boats (Catalina 27, Columbia 8.7 and CD27)and I recommend them highly. They are great for single handing ... just motor into the wind under autopilot while you prep and raise sails. Theye are also great for inexperienced crew. Instead of hollering at your crew from the far end of the boat (which gets folks edgy) stroll up to the foredeck with them and demonstrate ... cool calm collected.
Warren Kapaln wrote: Scott,
You scared the crap out of me. I get the chills every time I hear the words "stern tubes" and "stuffing boxes"! Nosirree! I'm not an offshore sailor and I don't expect to use an autopilot that much. The idea of the Autohelm ST4000 plus is already beginning to "dwindle" in my mind. I think I'll stick with the cockpit mounted unit. Even though it will take up some seating space, in reality, probably the only times I'll be using the autopilot is when I'm alone anyway..so I can "afford" to give up the space.
Thanks for the input!
Warren
cd25d@rhapsodysails.com
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Bill Goldsmith
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
Warren:
I have an Autohelm ST2000+ Tiller Pilot on Second Chance. It is just the right product for the right boat. The "+" designation means that it will listen to and talk to a GPS or other NMEA device without an additional interface box. By the way it works great when interfaced.
Yes, the 2000+ does take up room in the cockpit. However, the Autohelm ST4000+ Tiller Pilot also gets installed IN THE COCKPIT. Aside from capacity, etc, the key difference between the 4000 and 2000 is that the electronics on the 4000 are able to be mounted below with the ram mounted in the cockpit like any other Tiller Pilot. Clearly, the cylindrical ram on the 4000 is a bit less obtrusive in the cockpit than the whole 2000 unit.
I don't think installation of the 4000 would be that difficult, but definitely more work than the 2000. With the 4000 there would be more wires to run, and you'd have to locate and wire up the control. with the 2000, as noted in a prior post, installation is very simple. You have to install a power/data jack under the cockpit coaming in the vertical portion of FG behind the cockpit seat. Then you have to run power and ground. You have to drill a hole in the port cockpit seat and install a brass receptacle to hold the unit. I recommend sealing the balsa core before installing the breass tube, and also I would recommend installing a teak backing block under the cockpit seat to secure the tube well. Remember that point will be absorbing alot of push/pull. Finally, you'll need to drill a hole to recess a pin into the top of the tiller for the ram to attach, and you're done. The instructions are great and it was a pleasure to install. Data connections are optional and can be done later.
You wouldn't want to consider going to a belowdeck autopilot unless you also converted to wheel steering, as pointed out in other posts.
In practice, I find that the convenience of use of the autopilot more than makes up for the added inconvenience of having it take up room. Even when I have alot of guests on the boat, they seem to understand to let it do it's thing. (Although little kids have had their heads lightly bonked by the tiller when they aren't watching--kids also need to be told to leave the tiller alone when the Autopilot is engaged).
Mostly, however, I find I use the autopilot more when shorthanded, so the issue of having people make room for it is a minor one.
Good luck with your decision process!
Bill Goldsmith
CD 27 #173
Second Chance
goldy@bestweb.net
I have an Autohelm ST2000+ Tiller Pilot on Second Chance. It is just the right product for the right boat. The "+" designation means that it will listen to and talk to a GPS or other NMEA device without an additional interface box. By the way it works great when interfaced.
Yes, the 2000+ does take up room in the cockpit. However, the Autohelm ST4000+ Tiller Pilot also gets installed IN THE COCKPIT. Aside from capacity, etc, the key difference between the 4000 and 2000 is that the electronics on the 4000 are able to be mounted below with the ram mounted in the cockpit like any other Tiller Pilot. Clearly, the cylindrical ram on the 4000 is a bit less obtrusive in the cockpit than the whole 2000 unit.
I don't think installation of the 4000 would be that difficult, but definitely more work than the 2000. With the 4000 there would be more wires to run, and you'd have to locate and wire up the control. with the 2000, as noted in a prior post, installation is very simple. You have to install a power/data jack under the cockpit coaming in the vertical portion of FG behind the cockpit seat. Then you have to run power and ground. You have to drill a hole in the port cockpit seat and install a brass receptacle to hold the unit. I recommend sealing the balsa core before installing the breass tube, and also I would recommend installing a teak backing block under the cockpit seat to secure the tube well. Remember that point will be absorbing alot of push/pull. Finally, you'll need to drill a hole to recess a pin into the top of the tiller for the ram to attach, and you're done. The instructions are great and it was a pleasure to install. Data connections are optional and can be done later.
You wouldn't want to consider going to a belowdeck autopilot unless you also converted to wheel steering, as pointed out in other posts.
In practice, I find that the convenience of use of the autopilot more than makes up for the added inconvenience of having it take up room. Even when I have alot of guests on the boat, they seem to understand to let it do it's thing. (Although little kids have had their heads lightly bonked by the tiller when they aren't watching--kids also need to be told to leave the tiller alone when the Autopilot is engaged).
Mostly, however, I find I use the autopilot more when shorthanded, so the issue of having people make room for it is a minor one.
Good luck with your decision process!
Bill Goldsmith
CD 27 #173
Second Chance
Warren Kaplan wrote: I have decided to install an autopilot (tiller pilot) on my CD27. I know the ST2000 is certainly adequate in strength to handle the 7500 pound displacement of the CD27. But I don't like the idea of it being cockpit mounted and taking up seating space. The ST4000 Plus is a tiller pilot that is installed below decks with just the LED readout and push button control unit sort of flush mounted to a surface in the cockpit. The ST4000 Plus is designed for larger boats and obviously will have no trouble handling a boat of Sine Qua Non's displacement. The promotional literature says that the ST4000 Plus is designed for "easy owner installation". We've all heard that one before. Of course the 4000 is more expensive. Leaving cost difference aside, my questions: How easy is it to install the ST4000? Those of you that have either the ST 4000 Plus or the ST2000, do you like it? Are they reliable? Any tips or secrets would be greatly appreciated.
Warren
goldy@bestweb.net
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Andy Denmark
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
Warren:
RE: alternative
"You have to drill a hole in the port cockpit seat and install a brass receptacle to hold the unit. I recommend sealing the balsa core before installing the breass tube, and also I would recommend installing a teak backing block under the cockpit seat to secure the tube well. Remember that point will be absorbing alot of push/pull"
I too have the Autohelm ST2000 on Rhiannon and resolved the pivot pin wear problem by drilling out one of the bronze hinge screws to fit the female receptacle. Make it a press fit and epoxy in place using West System. The hinge area is solid fiberglass -- no balsa core -- so there's considerably more strength here. This method necessitates adding an extension (4" I think) to the pushrod. The extension is an inexpensive standard Autohelm part.
Andy Denmark
CD-27 Rhiannon
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
RE: alternative
"You have to drill a hole in the port cockpit seat and install a brass receptacle to hold the unit. I recommend sealing the balsa core before installing the breass tube, and also I would recommend installing a teak backing block under the cockpit seat to secure the tube well. Remember that point will be absorbing alot of push/pull"
I too have the Autohelm ST2000 on Rhiannon and resolved the pivot pin wear problem by drilling out one of the bronze hinge screws to fit the female receptacle. Make it a press fit and epoxy in place using West System. The hinge area is solid fiberglass -- no balsa core -- so there's considerably more strength here. This method necessitates adding an extension (4" I think) to the pushrod. The extension is an inexpensive standard Autohelm part.
Andy Denmark
CD-27 Rhiannon
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
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Warren Kaplan
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
Andy, Bill and everyone else who chimed in here,
Thanks all for the information. I had originally thought that the ST4000 was installed "totally" below decks, alleviating the cockpit seat problem. That's primarily why I was interested in it. Since that assumption was in error, the point is moot. I'll get the ST2000 Tiller pilot. I also "assume" the the wires are run to a switch on the DC distribution panel for power and not directly off the battery. Then again, not seeing the instructions, I should "assume" nothing.
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
Thanks all for the information. I had originally thought that the ST4000 was installed "totally" below decks, alleviating the cockpit seat problem. That's primarily why I was interested in it. Since that assumption was in error, the point is moot. I'll get the ST2000 Tiller pilot. I also "assume" the the wires are run to a switch on the DC distribution panel for power and not directly off the battery. Then again, not seeing the instructions, I should "assume" nothing.
Warren
Setsail728@aol.com
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chuck yahrling
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
I think how you source the wires can depend on practicality as much as having the ideal wiring layout. Running the wires back to a panel adds a lot of distance and since the wires should be 12 gauge or thicker to reduce voltage drop, a pretty big breaker. I chose to keep the power leads short to my ST2000 by going directly to one of my house batteries, which are situated under the cockpit sole. The previous owner had installed the "waterproof" power plug on the engine instrument panel, which is at the after end of the cockpit on a CD-27, so adding an inline fuse was all it took.Warren Kaplan wrote: Andy, Bill and everyone else who chimed in here,
Thanks all for the information. I had originally thought that the ST4000 was installed "totally" below decks, alleviating the cockpit seat problem. That's primarily why I was interested in it. Since that assumption was in error, the point is moot. I'll get the ST2000 Tiller pilot. I also "assume" the the wires are run to a switch on the DC distribution panel for power and not directly off the battery. Then again, not seeing the instructions, I should "assume" nothing.
Warren
Other considerations: I don't have to worry about the tiller drawing down the engine battery (it's the biggest drain), and I don't have to make an extra trip to the panel when getting underway in a hurry, power or sail. And even if everything else gets fried, the autopilot will probably still be able to help me get home. Just some thoughts.....
cyahrlin@cisco.com
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M. R. Bober
Re: Autohelm ST2000 vs ST4000 Plus Tiller pilots, CD27
From waaaaaaay out in left field:
When we installed a "tiller" autopilot (Autohelm 1000) on our CD27, the installation called for the mount to be quite far aft on the tiller. This placed the unit in the rear of the cockpit, where no crew would ever sit due to the swing of the tiller and the love of their shins. If your experience proves similiar, you won't have any sense of "loss".
Good luck.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
When we installed a "tiller" autopilot (Autohelm 1000) on our CD27, the installation called for the mount to be quite far aft on the tiller. This placed the unit in the rear of the cockpit, where no crew would ever sit due to the swing of the tiller and the love of their shins. If your experience proves similiar, you won't have any sense of "loss".
Good luck.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330