"Roll up" trickle charger with two battery leads

[Sea Hunt Video]

Maine Sail:

Not sure what the "C" post is. The battery switch I have is old - it just has "OFF", "1", "ALL" "2".

I was looking at the West Marine catalog and saw a Sunforce solar panel that is called "Trickle Charger". It is on page 369 of the 2011 WM catalog.

According to the data page, this "Trickle Charger" produces 350 mA or 5W power (based on 5 hrs sunlight).

The AC Delco Voyager literature says the M27MF is 270 amps.

Planning on any winter trips to sunny, warm South Florida It's a great time of the year here. And, as an extra special bonus, you can check out a 1982 Cape Dory 25D.

[Maine Sail]

By the way, I would recommend reading through (and understanding) Don Caseys Sailboat Electrics Simplified. Maine Sails book recommendation is very good, but Caseys book is much easier to wrap your head around first if you are new to this stuff, then move on to the more thorough books.

Have it; read it (twice); 19%-21% comprehension. I did like page 120 where Mr. Casey diagramed "A Better Way". Unfortunately, I did not show this to the electrician. Also, I do not think there is room on CD 25D to install three (3) separate switches (house, start & paralleling) as diagramed in his book.

Don Casey's "better way" leaves out a lot of potential issues we have today with new battery types, massive house banks etc.. "Emergency Combine" only works if you partially deplete a bank that is not a whole heck of a lot bigger than your "start" bank.

As your house bank gets bigger, and you kill it dead, then the minute you "combine" the banks the house bank begins sucking the life out of the diminutive start battery. This CAN leave you dead in the water if left in "combine" long enough.

A very simply re-wired 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch is by quite a long shot one of the best switches made from a safety and redundancy standpoint.

So what happens when you have a catastrophic failure of the house bank, as one of my customers did this summer. He had a Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus switch which only offers ON/OFF/COMBINE. His ONLY option was "emergency combine". The problem was he had no idea his AGM house bank had failed catastrophically. So he combined the house bank with the start bank and promptly took out the start battery as well. Both banks were now shot.

The Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus switch was designed for small fishing boats that run electronics but that start the motor and shut it down 5-20+ times per day. It works great in that application. On sailboats nearly 8 out of 10 I see are installed incorrectly.

With a simple 1/2/BOTH/OFF my could have simply switched to the second bank and been completely isolated from the "bad bank"..

For sailboats I much prefer a simple 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch turned into a USE or ON/OFF switch.

This is done easily;

*Add an ACR or Echo Charger to keep "reserve" battery charged
*Use house bank for everything

With this set up you get to the boat and simply flip to bank 1/ON. When you leave you flip it to OFF.

If you should happen to kill the house bank flip to bank #2 NOT the "ALL" position. You don't have to run the risk of combining a perfectly good bank with a failed, dead or internally shorted & potentially dangerous bank.

The ONLY time the ALL position would be used would be in the very, very, very rare instance that an ACR or Echo Charger were to fail. You could then use the ALL position to charge both banks as people have for years.

If you feel you absolutely must have a "dedicated starting battery" there is a simple way to add an ON/OFF to the 1/2/BOTH that retains all the isolation safety & redundancy but gives you start and house isolation.

[Russell]

I had to look to see if I still had the book on aboard, and I do, I turned to page 120, and sure enough, what he describes as "A better way" is precicely what i am encouraging with some more modern differences.

The space needed to use this approach is not nessisarilly more then you already have. Yes you can utilize this approach using 3 switches, but even that is overcomplicating it and better battery switches have come out since the book was published. The switch I use (and recommend in addition to combiners) is:

http://bluesea.com/category/78/1/products/5511e

Its basicly the next step from what Casey describes. For what its worth the setup he describes is this:

http://bluesea.com/category/78/80/products/8280

As much as I respect and like Casey, his book is dated enough to be out of date with what is considered "proper" today. You do want two banks, you do want to use a combiner, but from the user standpoint a "on/off/emergency parallel" switch is what you want, it offers all the flexability you need with the maximum simplicity from a users standpoint (ie you).

For what its worth though, separating the batteries and using a traditional 1/both/2/off switch is far better then having your only two batteries permanently connected in parallel.

And yes, you should label all of your wires, a couple years (or months) when you dig into it to add or change something, you will save yourself a lot of hassle by being able to glance and know what a wire is. I am surprised the electrician you hired did not do this himself, he should have.

[Russell]

The problem with what Maine Sail describes above is that generally most people will switch to "Both", exactly the same as "Emergency Combine" if the engine fails to start, which would provide the exact same results he described. The battery switch I recommend, which he apparently does not, keeps the user experience simple and in 99% of cases it works flawlessly. That 1% case, its likely user error will still cause the same problem.

That said, still, sticking with a 1/both/2/off switch and using combiners, and basically leaving your switch on 1 pretty much at all times except the rare time the engine does not start (when you switch to 2 FIRST and try, before BOTH) is still better then the old style way of wiring.

Oh, and my boat with a Blue Sea Duel Circuit Plus is far far more complicated then a small fishing boat and is about as complicated as a cruising boat can possibly get. I still strongly recommend it and see countless cruising boats with knowledgeable owners using the same setup (oddly less knowledgeable cruisers use more complex systems). Not trying to pick on Maine Sail here, he is knowledgeable and offers a lot of great insight to this board, but in this case I disagree strongly. Not going to post more on this topic as this can easily disrail to the point that it does not help Robert.

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail:

Not sure what the "C" post is. The battery switch I have is old - it just has "OFF", "1", "ALL" "2".

The "C" post is the terminal on the back of the switch that sends power to the starter and DC panel when the switch is in 1,2 or ALL position.

According to the data page, this "Trickle Charger" produces 350 mA or 5W power (based on 5 hrs sunlight).

Please don't let them steal your money... If you want to charge a wrist watch, OK, but two group 27's it will probably not even keep up with self discharge in warm climates. It may help you not lose any more capacity but it won't put much if any back in. 350mA is 0.35A an hour in perfect conditions and about 1.75Ah per day in perfect conditions.

With a 210 Ah bank at 80% state of charge, and no parasitic loads or other draws such as a bilge pump, it would take you nearly an entire month to get back to full and this is with perfect conditions and not counting clouds or charge efficiency losses.

The AC Delco Voyager literature says the M27MF is 270 amps.

The battery is not 270A that is likely the spec at which it is to be load tested. That battery has a claimed Ah capacity of 105 amp hours.

Using one as a house bank gives you 52.5 amp hours before hitting 50% depth of discharge, IF you started fro 100% state of charge..

Using two as the house bank would give you 105 amp hours to use IF you started from a 100% charged bank.

Planning on any winter trips to sunny, warm South Florida It's a great time of the year here. And, as an extra special bonus, you can check out a 1982 Cape Dory 25D.

My mother in-law does live in Vero Beach but I'm in no rush......

[Maine Sail]

The problem with what Maine Sail describes above is that generally most people will switch to "Both", exactly the same as "Emergency Combine" if the engine fails to start, which would provide the exact same results he described. The battery switch I recommend, which he apparently does not, keeps the user experience simple and in 99% of cases it works flawlessly. That 1% case, its likely user error will still cause the same problem.

That said, still, sticking with a 1/both/2/off switch and using combiners, and basically leaving your switch on 1 pretty much at all times except the rare time the engine does not start (when you switch to 2 FIRST and try, before BOTH) is still better then the old style way of wiring.

Oh, and my boat with a Blue Sea Duel Circuit Plus is far far more complicated then a small fishing boat and is about as complicated as a cruising boat can possibly get. I still strongly recommend it and see countless cruising boats with knowledgeable owners using the same setup (oddly less knowledgeable cruisers use more complex systems). Not trying to pick on Maine Sail here, he is knowledgeable and offers a lot of great insight to this board, but in this case I disagree strongly. Not going to post more on this topic as this can easily disrail to the point that it does not help Robert.

Russel,

You can always disagree strongly, it creates good conversation. When you're on the receiving end of the "issues" I see, and have seen, with the DCP it gets tiring. I DO install them just not usually on cruising boats where one bank is deeply cycled unless the owner is fully educated as to the pros & cons of the multitude of configuration options avaiable.

The reality still remains that you lose features, redundancy, complete bank isolation and the ability to use your second bank as a "reserve house or everything bank", if needed, without physically digging into the wires and re-wiring your boat in an emergency.

So what do you get for your money? Some simplicity with only an ON/OFF/COMBINE and dedicated house and starting banks. Unfortunately the banks become locked into this service, and this service only, unless using the "combine" feature.

A 1/2/BOTH used as a ON/OFF saves money and is very simple but offers LOTS more safety and flexibility. I have yet to have one customer admit they've ever used the ALL feature after I have re-wired their system and sat with them and explained in detail how the system now works..

You also pay more for a DCP and throw away what is very often a perfectly good switch. If I re-wire a 1/2/BOTH I simply place an ON or House label over bank #1 and the owners then use it as a simple ON / OFF. They can however use the second bank that they already have on-board as an emergency house bank, if necessary, all without having to "combine".

Once I re-wire a 1/2/BOTH for a customer and educate them as to why not to use BOTH/ALL they don't use BOTH again but the "feature" is still there..

Just a few weeks ago I had another customer make great use of his 1/2/BOTH in an emergency at 2:00 am out in the middle of Casco Bay. He simply flipped his 1/2/BOTH to bank #2/Reserve and was back in business. The issue with the house bank wiring was addressed the next morning. If he had a DCP he would have been dead in the water as he would not have wanted to combine banks with a yet unknown issue on the house bank. He simply took that bank 100% off line, because he could, and used his second bank for house loads until morning..

I wish I could say these issues are 1% with the DCP.. As I mentioned a solid 8 out of 10 that I see are installed incorrectly.. Can you say relay cycling from improper installation..?

DCP simple? Sure.. Better? Not as far as redundancy, flexibility and safety is concerned....

I still strongly recommend it and see countless cruising boats with knowledgeable owners using the same setup (oddly less knowledgeable cruisers use more complex systems).

Yes I guess this unknowledgeable, ABYC certified marine electrical systems specialist and cruiser, uses something "more complicated"......


1/2/BOTH

Bank #1 can be used as house or starting or starting & house
Bank #2 can be used as house or starting or starting & house
Can easily be used as a simple ON/OFF
Can be used to combine
Bank #1 can be 100% isolated/offline while still using bank #2
Bank #2 can be 100% isolated/offline while still using bank #1
Can be used to "direct" charge current (if wired as such)
No need to combine good bank with bad/dead bank in "emergency"
Slightly less simple OFF/1/ALL/2
Does no isolate starting circuit from house loads

DCP Switch

House Bank can only be used as House Bank
Start Bank can only be used as Start Bank
Can be used to combine
Is used as an ON/OFF
House Bank is isolated from Start bank but locked into this service
Start bank is isolated from House bank but locked into this service
Must combine good bank with bad/dead bank in "emergency"
Simple OFF/ON/COMBINE

[Russell]

I still strongly recommend it and see countless cruising boats with knowledgeable owners using the same setup (oddly less knowledgeable cruisers use more complex systems).

Yes I guess this unknowledgeable, ABYC certified marine electrical systems specialist and cruiser, uses something "more complicated"......

I left it nice and walked away, you decided to get snarky, so be it. In your own example of the customer you had who with a failed system, they had AGM batteries, you, the experienced ABYC certified etc allowed for AGM batteries?

You give a lot of good advice on this board and all over various internet sailing boards, even if obviously self serving, its still generally good advice. But chill out, I backed off for the good of Robert and keeping the thread informative, dont get snarky or worried because someone just as knowledgeable on the subject disagreed.

[Sea Hunt Video]

According to the data page, this "Trickle Charger" produces 350 mA or 5W power (based on 5 hrs sunlight).

Please don't let them steal your money... If you want to charge a wrist watch, OK, but two group 27's it will probably not even keep up with self discharge in warm climates. It may help you not lose any more capacity but it won't put much if any back in. 350mA is 0.35A an hour in perfect conditions and about 1.75Ah per day in perfect conditions.

With a 210 Ah bank at 80% state of charge, and no parasitic loads or other draws such as a bilge pump, it would take you nearly an entire month to get back to full and this is with perfect conditions and not counting clouds or charge efficiency losses.
My mother in-law does live in Vero Beach but I'm in no rush......

Ok, thanks for saving me from buying something not suited to what I need.

What do you (and Russell - come on guys, let's play nice so we can help the dummy Robert before he really screws up ) recommend for a small charger

Here are my facts:

1. I am on a mooring NOT a dock. I do NOT have access to shore power except when I come in to the main dock and then only for short periods of time (1-2 hrs) to allow for wash down, pump out, loading & unloading, etc.

2. I live in Miami. We tend to get a LOT of sun year round.

3. I have a Cape Dory 25D, not a Cape Dory 40 While she is big given my limited skills, S/V Bali Ha'i is SMALL. As Trapper mentioned in an earlier thread, there is very, very little room to put anything on deck, etc.

4. I do have a stern pulpit (solid). However, there really is no room for a permanently fixed panel. Also, while the sailing club is reasonably safe from looters, I would be very reluctant to put a $200-$300 fixed solar panel out on the stern pulpit. It would be almost like waving a big sign - "take me, take me".

Maine Sail, you should think about visiting your mother-in-law this winter. Vero Beach is a short 2 1/2 hrs from the sailing club and a pleasant drive.

[Maine Sail]

I still strongly recommend it and see countless cruising boats with knowledgeable owners using the same setup (oddly less knowledgeable cruisers use more complex systems).

Yes I guess this unknowledgeable, ABYC certified marine electrical systems specialist and cruiser, uses something "more complicated"......

I left it nice and walked away,

Then perhaps I misunderstood your dig & insult at those of us who still use a different system than the DCP switch.

Why walk away from a good discussion? I tend to view these as educational discussions. If one side is presented poo poohing a product, and their users, I suspect it is fair to present another viewpoint for fair balance? Perhaps that's not so? Considering other people besides the OP may read this thread the information presented in any thread I find to be valuable even if it does wander off course as all threads tend to do.

you decided to get snarky, so be it.

I got "snarky"??

You basically stated, and I quoted, that anyone using what you perceive as a more "complicated" system, and I would have to guess you meant a 1/2/BOTH switch, is "less knowledgeable" than yourself or other "cruising boats with knowledgeable owners".. Did I read that broad based statement incorrectly?

Where I come from some folks would take that as an insult. I did not make any personal digs at you, or other boaters or pre-judge them as "less knowledgeable cruisers", but you did, and I found it well within the realm of this discussion to at least make a response to that dig. My response was simply to let you know that I found your statement a tad over the top, hence the "winkie"....

In your own example of the customer you had who with a failed system, they had AGM batteries, you, the experienced ABYC certified etc allowed for AGM batteries?

Oh great more personal level digs? Over what, a DISCUSSION about different types of battery switches? Is this really necessary?

Where did you get the idea that I "allow" or disallow my customers to do anything? All I ever ask is that my customer do their homework and weigh the available options and pros and cons of each.

On this boat AGM's made sense not from a price or longevity perspective but from a space constraint. They still do make sense but the owner, not me, decided to move back to wet cell technilogy and spend the money to build a dedicated battery box for the staring battery. He still has the DCP and I have not, and did not, try to talk him out of it. He has asked that I replace it before next spring. I have suggested he consider sticking with it, it's already installed, and offered him another "emergency" solution that I don't know if he'll go with yet or not.

I install AGM batteries, and GEL and wets and TPPL and like the DCP vs. 1/2/BOTH there are pro's and cons to each and I install each plus many more variations. There is NO perfect system just lots of options to consider. I don't consider the 1/2/BOTH or the DCP the "best", nor the worst either, just part of the mix of available options a boat owner has to consider..

You give a lot of good advice on this board and all over various internet sailing boards, even if obviously self serving, its still generally good advice. But chill out, I backed off for the good of Robert and keeping the thread informative, dont get snarky or worried because someone just as knowledgeable on the subject disagreed.

Again, I was not getting snarky just responding to what I read as a dig at myself and other "less knowledgeable cruisers" who may choose a different approach than you do.

Seeing as you brought it up, I am trying to have a good discussion as to the merits and pro's and con's of each type of switch.

As noted above the DCP HAS it's merits, certainly SIMPLICITY and start isolation but with that comes some loss of features. The 1/2/BOTH lacks start isolation and some simplicity but retains some other useful features.. I DO install DCP switches but I don't go around ripping out every 1/2/BOTH switch I come across because there are often many other factors to consider when you make the switch to a different switch set up.


If I misread your quoted comment please let me know what you meant and I will gladly apologize.

[marilou]

If you have two good batteries, you should be good to go. Unless your bilge pump is running day and night. Your auto bilge pump should be run to 1 battery bypassing the switch Go out to your boat, as I am sure you will do, start the engine, run around the harbor and enjoy(your engine , you & your boat will enjoy it too). One of the reasons of owning a 25D in Florida.
Save boat bucks and enjoy!.

[Terry]

With the 1/2/BOTH switch, isn't there a potential problem IF the engine is running and the switch is moved through OFF to the other side to charge the other bank?

It seems that the ON/OFF/Combine switch prevents THAT possibility, while LIMITING it's usefulness in other situations, as has been pointed out.

As for me, on Cassandra, getting the iron ginny started is a matter of armstrong, and it's getting weak with age.

All the best. Terry

[marilou]

Do not shut the engine off with the key/kill switch. do not turn the battery selector to off while the engine is running.

[Maine Sail]

With the 1/2/BOTH switch, isn't there a potential problem IF the engine is running and the switch is moved through OFF to the other side to charge the other bank?

Yes, if wired in the fashion they come from the factory this can and does happen. In this factory wiring scenario the alternator runs back to the batteries through the starter cable. Disconnecting the "load" or battery bank while the alternator is working by flipping the switch OFF can cause a voltage spike that can take out the diodes.

Wiring the alternator direct to the house bank prevents this so it all depends upon how the 1/2/BOTH is wired.

It seems that the ON/OFF/Combine switch prevents THAT possibility, while LIMITING it's usefulness in other situations, as has been pointed out.

Not necessarily. Like the 1/2/BOTH it only prevents this if the alternator is direct wired direct to a bank. Switching through OFF with a DCP can still blow diodes if the alternator is left running back through the starter cable.

A large number of the DCP's I come across are installed and wired so that turning it OFF will still blow the diodes.

They are also very often installed so the start battery is seeing charge current first. When the relay combines with the often much bigger house bank it sucks the voltage down and the relay disconnects only to continue doing this until the relay can remain connected..

A DCP and a 1/2/BOTH should ideally have the alt wired direct to the larger of the two banks to prevent this if using an ACR or other voltage sensitive relay.

By wiring either switch with the alt direct to the bank you eliminate the potential for load disconnects and diode frying.

Ideally both a 1/2/BOTH and a DCP, or any switch config that can cause a load disconnect, should have the alternator fed direct to the house bank if blowing diodes is a concern.

The 1/2/BOTH clearly has a higher percentage chance of blown diodes if an ACR type relay has not been added to it and you are manually directing the charge source to the banks.

[trapper]

I know less than Robert. I own Don Casey's book but my eyes crossed early in the reading so I stopped. Ben will not answer my questions regarding this issue as I assume he does not think I will understand it. That said, here is my experience. The soft panel worked great on my 22 for years with one battery. Before I put the shore power trickle on Saga (25D) with her 2 batteries, I used the soft solar attached to one battery that ran the bilge and it worked great. A guy at my marina told me it was not doing anything. All I know is that it worked. During that period she leaked and the bilge kept her afloat. Because I am in a slip with shore powers and a trickle set up for shore power, I don't need solar but I keep mine on board just in case.

Robert, I want to see pics!

[Sea Hunt Video]

URGENT NEWS FLASH AND NEWS ALERT!!!!

AP, UPI, BBC, CNN, WNN, INN all report that Sea Hunt Video has made his first mistake in more than 24 hours. Reporters familiar with the matter have stated normally Sea Hunt Video makes a mistake every 3-4 hours. Not having made a mistake for more than 24 hours is considered a record for Sea Hunt Video.

Reporters have been told the following by sources believed to be reliable:

The two AC Delco Voyager Group 27 batteries (M27MF) on S/V Bali Ha'i are NOT set up in parallel. They are in series and only connected in parallel via the Perko battery switch (OFF, 1, ALL, 2).

The cable connecting the two batteries together is BLACK and is believed to be the negative ground cable. A black cable goes from Battery #2 (neg) to Battery #1 (neg). A second black cable goes from Battery #1 (neg) to the engine block.

Sources report that Sea Hunt Video is still trying to trace some red wires that go from the battery up into the cabin. It was reported earlier that Sea Hunt Video was working in a very small portside locker and that, because of too much linguini over the past 5-6 years it is difficult to move around in there.

There are scattered but unconfirmed reports that some viewers are hoping Sea Hunt Video just stays in the portside cockpit locker.