I had a couple of instances of reluctant restarting after a day's sail which had me searching the archives for clues. A 2005 thread suggested a rewiring mod to the glow plug / starter switches which allows the starter solenoid to be activated without going through the glow plug switch for power. I had already cleaned up connections and replaced one switch and still had an issue, so I tried the wiring modification and have had instant starts and restarts since. I'll report back at the end of the season, but for now, I'm convinced. And another big thank you to the contributors to the best Board around!
...searched "universal 5424 starter solenoid" to find the thread.
Universal 5424 starter problem - An Archives Endorsement
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ralph H
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mar 18th, '07, 00:54
- Location: '85 Cape Dory 330 "Liberty" (#125)
'62 Sea Sprite 23 "Lady J"
Universal 5424 starter wiring modification - Follow-up
With winterization nearing, I just wanted to report that the wiring modification below(gleaned from 2005 thread contribution by "guest" Tom) has continued to work flawlessly. Starts and restarts without any issues through the rest of the season. If you have intermitant restart failures where the starter soleniod fails to engage, you may want to check this thread by searching "universal 5424 starter solenoid" for some good advice.
http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... r+solenoid
http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... r+solenoid
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M. R. Bober
- Posts: 1122
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 08:59
- Location: CARETAKER CD28 Flybridge Trawler
Ralph,
Changing the glow plug/starter circuit from series to parallel is an excellent modification. I made the improvement on RESPITE years ago, and never had a problem. John Sill did the same with BEHOLDER'S EYE at a CDSOA raft-up.
Before the mod, I had to switch the battery selector to "ALL" to start the engine. After the mod either battery could start the engine. I have often wondered why Universal felt the need to force the glow plug/starter combo.
FWIW: I placed a copy of Tom (Cambria's) schematic in my Universal engine manual, for those who might work on the engine after my time.
Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster, (went sailing today after the fog lifted.) VA
Changing the glow plug/starter circuit from series to parallel is an excellent modification. I made the improvement on RESPITE years ago, and never had a problem. John Sill did the same with BEHOLDER'S EYE at a CDSOA raft-up.
Before the mod, I had to switch the battery selector to "ALL" to start the engine. After the mod either battery could start the engine. I have often wondered why Universal felt the need to force the glow plug/starter combo.
FWIW: I placed a copy of Tom (Cambria's) schematic in my Universal engine manual, for those who might work on the engine after my time.
Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster, (went sailing today after the fog lifted.) VA
CDSOA Founding Member
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M. R. Bober
- Posts: 1122
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 08:59
- Location: CARETAKER CD28 Flybridge Trawler
Susan & I took another couple to Urbanna today, for a bit of lunch. A little fog in the AM, not much wind, but all in all a great day.Ralph H wrote:Mitch,
Sound advice to update the manual to reflect the wiring mod ... will do the same.
We got out for a few hours on Monday. Tidewater Va. sure is pretty in the Fall!
Ralph
Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster, (We are very near Sunny Urbanna, where the town dock allows four hours of free dockage.) VA
CDSOA Founding Member
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JWSutcliffe
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Jul 29th, '08, 22:41
- Location: CD 31 Oryx, hull #55, based in Branford CT
Lest you feel too smug, I went through the same problem and wiring mod 2 seasons ago. Toward the end of this seaskn I started getting the same lack of cranking again. It seems that the root cause of the problem is progressive corrosion of the battery cables, and reducing the current draw by separating the glow plug and starter solenoid is only a temporary fix.
Skip Sutcliffe
CD31 Oryx
CD31 Oryx
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Maine Sail
- Posts: 839
- Joined: Feb 8th, '06, 18:30
- Location: Canadian Sailcraft 36T
Guys,
I do these upgrades on Universal/Westerbeke engines very often and it is VERY important. Just finished one on a mid 80's Oday.
The factory wiring, with ammeter in the panel, is flat out dangerous and this really needs to be addressed if it has not. It amazes me how many boats are out there still using this unsafe set up.
#1 If you have an ammeter in your panel REMOVE it and jump your alternator 6" over to the starter post with heavy wire. Better yet run your alt direct to the house bank with a fuse or breaker within 7" of the battery and then add a combining relay or Echo Charger.. The existing alternator charging circuit, with ammeter, runs as far as 25+ feet on some boats before it gets to the battery. On most of these panels the entire current of the alternator runs through 10GA wire and a ridiculous trailer type connector that is a huge point of resistance as these boats age. I have pulled MANY of these connectors and wires out that were literally melted!
I have also measured voltage drops of 1.2+ volts or more at just 10A of charge current through these circuits. That means your alt is putting out 14.2V+ and the battery is seeing just 13.0 volts and is being chronically under charged.
#2 Replace the ammeter with a volt gauge. Simple, easy and inexpensive. If you want an ammeter you'd be well served to invest in a real battery monitor with a proper shunt..
#3 Find and REMOVE the trailer type connectors in the wiring harness and replace them with a buss bar and ring terminals or butt splices. These connectors can start fires! They are not designed to have 50+ amps running through them let alone the alt upgrades to 75+ amps I have seen still running though this grossly under designed circuit. I have a melted one sitting on my bench right now that I have not yet tossed out.. It's not the first and sadly won't be the last.
#4 Add a 12V solenoid on the engine and pull the high power inlet from the starter post. Energize the solenoid with the glow plug switch and pull the glow plugs off the other side of the solenoid. This now makes your "glow plug" circuit and low amp solenoid energizing wire. No more high current for the glow plugs running 20+ feet round trip through small gauge wire. The glow plugs now energize through the solenoid and the glow switch only energizes the solenoid coil. Your glow plugs will heat up a LOT faster...
#5 I prefer to leave the glow plug/start factory wired where the glow circuit energizes the engine start button, no glow, no start.. Why? Because when you make them independent people tend to never use enough glow or try not to use it at all. If you're comfortable with breaking the series glow/switch wiring then go for it.
#6 Re-terminate the entire back of the panel and all engine connections. I use a Dremel with a stainless brush/wheel to clean the copper wires that can't be replaced easily. This brush can get to all wire strands and does a great job of getting back to clean unoxidized copper so you can re-terminate.
#7 Remove the starter and clean the face and engine mating surfaces. Apply an electrical anti-oxidizing and conducting grease like No-Ox-Id Special A, Penetrox A or another CONDUCTING grease, NOT a dielectric grease. This will ensure your starters case ground is solid for many, many years to come.
#8 You can also re-route your ship neg / ground to the starter bolt or stud. You may need a longer stud or bolt for the bell housing. Remove any paint on the starter mounting shoe and apply electrical conducting grease to the battery lug and starter foot. Your starter now has a DIRECT path back to the battery bank without worrying about passing current through the rusted interfaces of the engine. Ideally your alt should also connect to this point/wire too. remember ALL Dc circuits are a loop. No ground, no go, poor ground, poor performance.
#9 While your at it examine your battery cables. Many builders cut corners here and an upgrade can make a huge difference. Remember the current to turn the motor over comes through the battery cables not the solenoid. The solenoid only connects the battery to the starter and is a relatively low current circuit.
I do these upgrades on Universal/Westerbeke engines very often and it is VERY important. Just finished one on a mid 80's Oday.
The factory wiring, with ammeter in the panel, is flat out dangerous and this really needs to be addressed if it has not. It amazes me how many boats are out there still using this unsafe set up.
#1 If you have an ammeter in your panel REMOVE it and jump your alternator 6" over to the starter post with heavy wire. Better yet run your alt direct to the house bank with a fuse or breaker within 7" of the battery and then add a combining relay or Echo Charger.. The existing alternator charging circuit, with ammeter, runs as far as 25+ feet on some boats before it gets to the battery. On most of these panels the entire current of the alternator runs through 10GA wire and a ridiculous trailer type connector that is a huge point of resistance as these boats age. I have pulled MANY of these connectors and wires out that were literally melted!
I have also measured voltage drops of 1.2+ volts or more at just 10A of charge current through these circuits. That means your alt is putting out 14.2V+ and the battery is seeing just 13.0 volts and is being chronically under charged.
#2 Replace the ammeter with a volt gauge. Simple, easy and inexpensive. If you want an ammeter you'd be well served to invest in a real battery monitor with a proper shunt..
#3 Find and REMOVE the trailer type connectors in the wiring harness and replace them with a buss bar and ring terminals or butt splices. These connectors can start fires! They are not designed to have 50+ amps running through them let alone the alt upgrades to 75+ amps I have seen still running though this grossly under designed circuit. I have a melted one sitting on my bench right now that I have not yet tossed out.. It's not the first and sadly won't be the last.
#4 Add a 12V solenoid on the engine and pull the high power inlet from the starter post. Energize the solenoid with the glow plug switch and pull the glow plugs off the other side of the solenoid. This now makes your "glow plug" circuit and low amp solenoid energizing wire. No more high current for the glow plugs running 20+ feet round trip through small gauge wire. The glow plugs now energize through the solenoid and the glow switch only energizes the solenoid coil. Your glow plugs will heat up a LOT faster...
#5 I prefer to leave the glow plug/start factory wired where the glow circuit energizes the engine start button, no glow, no start.. Why? Because when you make them independent people tend to never use enough glow or try not to use it at all. If you're comfortable with breaking the series glow/switch wiring then go for it.
#6 Re-terminate the entire back of the panel and all engine connections. I use a Dremel with a stainless brush/wheel to clean the copper wires that can't be replaced easily. This brush can get to all wire strands and does a great job of getting back to clean unoxidized copper so you can re-terminate.
#7 Remove the starter and clean the face and engine mating surfaces. Apply an electrical anti-oxidizing and conducting grease like No-Ox-Id Special A, Penetrox A or another CONDUCTING grease, NOT a dielectric grease. This will ensure your starters case ground is solid for many, many years to come.
#8 You can also re-route your ship neg / ground to the starter bolt or stud. You may need a longer stud or bolt for the bell housing. Remove any paint on the starter mounting shoe and apply electrical conducting grease to the battery lug and starter foot. Your starter now has a DIRECT path back to the battery bank without worrying about passing current through the rusted interfaces of the engine. Ideally your alt should also connect to this point/wire too. remember ALL Dc circuits are a loop. No ground, no go, poor ground, poor performance.
#9 While your at it examine your battery cables. Many builders cut corners here and an upgrade can make a huge difference. Remember the current to turn the motor over comes through the battery cables not the solenoid. The solenoid only connects the battery to the starter and is a relatively low current circuit.
Last edited by Maine Sail on Nov 10th, '11, 14:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Bob Ohler
- Posts: 610
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 14:11
- Location: CD30 1984 Hull# 335 Aloha Spirit, Chesapeake Bay
Another Quality Submission from Maine Sail!
Great report Maine Sail! Thanks!
Bob Ohler
CDSOA Member #188
CD30B, Hull # 335
sv Aloha Spirit
CDSOA Member #188
CD30B, Hull # 335
sv Aloha Spirit
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Steve Laume
- Posts: 4127
- Joined: Feb 13th, '05, 20:40
- Location: Raven1984 Cape Dory 30C Hull #309Noank, CT
- Contact:
I have done most of the modifications Maine Sail recommends. Very through as usual.
A couple of additions would be that there are two of those "trailer type" connections. One is at the panel and the other at the engine. It seems as if the boat was set up with harness in place then the panel and the engine were plugged in. This is great for the manufacturer or if you plan to take out your engine on a regular basis. When I did have Raven's engine out I ran all new wires. These went from the panel to the engine without any breaks. No only did it eliminate the connectors but I was also able to clean up and shorten many of the wires. With the original harness everything ran to the vicinity of the starter and then off to wherever it needed to go. In the case of a number of the wires it was back the way they came. By starting over I was able to break out the wires for the fuel pump, oil pressure and temp long before they would have gotten to the plug. I figured anyone who was going to be removing the engine would be able to disconnect the various wires without a plug.
Another thing to look at is a small in line fuse behind the panel. I had a no start situation this summer while I still had plenty of sea room. In some situations it might not have been good. I left the boat sail while I pulled the panel and went to work with the multi meter. The fuse was cracked and badly corroded. While you guys have your engine panels out, please take a look at the fuse.
I have separated my glow plugs from the start button for several reasons. One is that it draws less power from the starter if you release the glow plug button before you hit the start. It also makes things easier to trouble shoot. One factor not to be dismissed is that it is also easier to start the engine with one hand while holding on or steering with the other. Given the location of the panel I always found myself crouched down with a thumb on each button. Now I can hit the glow plug for a count of 15 or 20 and then the start button.
When the PO of Raven first showed me his boat he seemed a bit tentative about starting the engine. It didn't take too long to figure out why. Once he turned the key he started to hit the "primer" about 20 "pumps". Then he hit the starter and it didn't go so he "primed" it a bit more. Now that I think about it, I am surprised he ever got the thing started. He must have held down the "primer" when he hit the start button, Steve.
A couple of additions would be that there are two of those "trailer type" connections. One is at the panel and the other at the engine. It seems as if the boat was set up with harness in place then the panel and the engine were plugged in. This is great for the manufacturer or if you plan to take out your engine on a regular basis. When I did have Raven's engine out I ran all new wires. These went from the panel to the engine without any breaks. No only did it eliminate the connectors but I was also able to clean up and shorten many of the wires. With the original harness everything ran to the vicinity of the starter and then off to wherever it needed to go. In the case of a number of the wires it was back the way they came. By starting over I was able to break out the wires for the fuel pump, oil pressure and temp long before they would have gotten to the plug. I figured anyone who was going to be removing the engine would be able to disconnect the various wires without a plug.
Another thing to look at is a small in line fuse behind the panel. I had a no start situation this summer while I still had plenty of sea room. In some situations it might not have been good. I left the boat sail while I pulled the panel and went to work with the multi meter. The fuse was cracked and badly corroded. While you guys have your engine panels out, please take a look at the fuse.
I have separated my glow plugs from the start button for several reasons. One is that it draws less power from the starter if you release the glow plug button before you hit the start. It also makes things easier to trouble shoot. One factor not to be dismissed is that it is also easier to start the engine with one hand while holding on or steering with the other. Given the location of the panel I always found myself crouched down with a thumb on each button. Now I can hit the glow plug for a count of 15 or 20 and then the start button.
When the PO of Raven first showed me his boat he seemed a bit tentative about starting the engine. It didn't take too long to figure out why. Once he turned the key he started to hit the "primer" about 20 "pumps". Then he hit the starter and it didn't go so he "primed" it a bit more. Now that I think about it, I am surprised he ever got the thing started. He must have held down the "primer" when he hit the start button, Steve.
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Maine Sail
- Posts: 839
- Joined: Feb 8th, '06, 18:30
- Location: Canadian Sailcraft 36T
Here's the full version of the wiring harness upgrade, with pics..
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/univ ... ss_upgrade
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/univ ... ss_upgrade