Installing main halyard winch on coach roof

[Sea Hunt Video]

I am thinking of possibly installing a winch on the coach roof (starboard side) of my new-to-me Cape Dory 25D. My only reason for doing this is safety. I will be sailing alone 95% of the time. Because I am inexperienced (and stupid ) I am concerned that once out on Biscayne Bay if I go forward to the mast to raise the main there is the possibility I may get knocked into the Bay as the result of some stupid move I make. I am also concerned that when lowering the main the same "overboard" possibility exists, especially if I am lowering the main because of bad sea state conditions.

I remember 2-3 Cape Dorians on this board installed a main winch on their coach roof. I think Warren Kaplan did so on his Cape Dory 27 and possibly our Commodore Bill Slater ("Barfwinkle") did so on his Cape Dory 25D. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful at finding their posts, photos, discussion, etc. Not much of a surprise there. Can someone point me to the thread locations

I believe my CD 25D already has a plate under the mast with a few holes for attaching blocks. I am not sure exactly what it is called. I am also not sure of the make or model of this plate but it is similar to the one I remember I saw on a photo submitted by Warren K.

Rigrite offers one they call a "Halyard Organizer Plate".

http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Mast_hinges.html

I also remember that Warren (and possibly Barfwinkle) installed a "turning block organizer" ( ) in between the main halyard block at the bottom of the mast and the main halyard winch.

So, my questions.

1. Are there any reasons I should not install a cabin roof main halyard winch so that I can raise and lower the main from the safety of the cockpit

2. Is this an installation I can do myself or should I hire a pro I am reasonably comfortable drilling, gouging out balsa core, rebedding with epoxy, etc. - similar to Don Casey's instructions for drilling holes in a boat. This is what I did to install two cam cleats on the coach roof of my Ty Weekender. Much smaller job than what I now propose but same principles I think.

3. What specific brand/make/model of gear should I buy

Halyard plate organizer (I have one but I am not sure of suitability for this)

Turning block organizer (not sure of correct name)

Main halyard winch. I assume I want this to be a self-tailing winch.

I very much appreciate any and all comments, suggestions, etc.

Thank you.

[RIKanaka]

Here's a picture of my deck and cabin top, showing a Schaefer deck organizer capable of handling 4 lines, a Spinlock clutch for 3 lines, and a Lewmar 6 winch (non self-tailing).



All are mounted on teak bases. Although I didn't do the installation I think the skills necessary to do a good installation are certainly in line with your prior experiences.

One thing I don't have which I think would be handy when single-handing is a down-haul for main. I have read of others making a continuous loop of main halyard/downhaul (the latter tied into the head plate of the main). I find that I have to go to the mast more often to deal with the main that hung up at the mast coming down than going up.

[Steve Bryant]

Robert,

To answer your questions:

1. No reason not to if you do all your work from the cockpit. In my opinion you should either do it all from the mast or have the ability to do it all from the cockpit. This would include reefing, and handling your topping lift, along with raising and lowering your main.

2. You can do this work yourself. The main concerns would be the epoxy prep work you described for the holes you drill through the core and using proper backing plates for the bolted connections.

3. Hardware that I used was:

Dwyer Mast Halyard Organizer Plate - half the price of the Rig-Rite model with none of the hassels. www.dwyermast.com

Deck Organizers - Harken double Crusing ESP deck organizers mounted on a teak spacer plate to create a fair lead from the mast turning blocks. Chose these because they have ball bearing sheaves. Garhauer also makes a similar ball bearing organizer in stainless steel. Purchased from Rigging Only. www.riggingonly.com

Lewmar Rope Clutches - Lewmar D1 double rope clutch for lines 1/4" to 1/2". Much less expensive to use a standard winch with rope clutches than a self-tailer. Rope clutches free up the winch when you have multiple lines running back to the cockpit. Also purchased from Rigging Only.

Cabin Top Halyard Winch - Used existing Lewmar 6 sheet winches and replaced sheet winches with Andersen 12ST self-tailers. The standard Lewmar 6 is more than adequate for this use. The cabin top is flat enough that you don't need teak winch pads.

I also sent you a PM if you care to discuss further.

Good Luck on the new ride,

[bottomscraper]

Unless you really like maintaining teak you might want
to consider using "King Starboard" or other marine grade HDPE
plastic if you need to raise up a winch or deck organizer. The
black colored stuff also doesn't show mildew.

Below is a photo of the deck organizer we have on Mahalo, it's a Garhauer. It
is mounted on a 1/2" thick piece of black HDPE, the back side was
made slightly concave with a belt sander so that it seats well on
the deck. Our cabin top winches are mounted directly, no spacers
were required.

On Mahalo the same winch is used for both the main halyard and
the main sheet. There is a double rope clutch mounted forward
of the winch so that it can be shared. The rope clutch is also
a Garhauer product. If I remember correctly the 25D main sheet
uses fidlle blocks to the end of the boom and doesn't have a
winch so that's not an option.

[Neil Gordon]

If you're concerned about falling off while going forward, rig jacklines and clip on.

I know you're enthusiastic and love to make lists of "improvements" and plan projects. Make lists and plan, but seriously, sail the boat for a year before you start drilling holes and spending $$$ on upgrades that might not be your highest priority a year from now.

[Jerry Hammernik]

Neil is exactly right. Sail it before you change it. You'll often be surprised by how things are different than you thought they'd be. Avoid wasting money and do overs.

Just my .02.

[Dean Abramson]

Robert,

Sail it for a while first. The 25D is a more stable platform than the Ty. You might not feel as vulnerable on the 25D. I think for single-handing, a tiller-pilot would be money better spent, and less costly (I think) than installing that winch. Plus less invasive to the boat, and easier. If you can make sure the boat is headed where you want, and the main sheet is slackened, going forward will be no big deal. IMHO.

Dean

[Joe Myerson]

n/m

[Neil Gordon]

I think for single-handing, a tiller-pilot would be money better spent, ...

Dean, he has one of those, fresh in the box and just needing to be installed. That might be my first suggested upgrade, but I'd still recommend that Robert sail the boat for a while before deciding to install on the port or stbd side.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Yes, an Autohelm ST 2000 came with my Cape Dory 25D. It is not installed. It is electronics (or "electrical" as Neal suggests ) and I do not really plan on using it for a while, perhaps a long while.

Dean, I have always thought that when single handing and going forward you do NOT want the autopilot engaged because if things go very bad and you fall overboard the boat will continue to motor/sail on in a fairly straight line. In my youth I used to be a good swimmer (both speed and distance). Not so much any more. I doubt even in my youth that I could somehow "catch up" to a sailboat under sail or power.

Without the autopilot I would think most boats (especially Cape Dorys with a full keel) would eventually head up into the wind and stall - allowing some possibility of regaining one's dignity and somehow attempting to climb back aboard.

Am I wrong about not engaging the autopilot when single handing and going forward to the mast, the bow, etc.

On my Ty Weekender, I did not have any autopilot or tiller tamer. I just tried to get her headed up into the wind as close as I could, make sure the mainsheet was fully free and then raise (or lower) the mainsail.

I had planned to do that with my Cape Dory 25D whether in the safety of the cockpit with a halyard led aft or standing on the deck.

Thoughts

[Neil Gordon]

>>Dean, I have always thought that when single handing and going forward you do NOT want the autopilot engaged because if things go very bad and you fall overboard the boat will continue to motor/sail on in a fairly straight line.<<

You can mitigate much of your concern by dropping down to the slowest speed that will keep the boat on course.

>>Without the autopilot I would think most boats (especially Cape Dorys with a full keel) would eventually head up into the wind and stall - allowing some possibility of regaining one's dignity and somehow attempting to climb back aboard.<<

With sails down, the bow will fall off and the boat will drift slowly to leeward.

>>Am I wrong about not engaging the autopilot when single handing and going forward to the mast, the bow, etc.<<

It's not right or wrong. It's about managing the risk. The safest place to be might be home in bed. To be really safe, move your mattress into the (empty) bath tub and sleep there. On the other hand, if you're willing to take at least some risk, go sailing. (From my point of view, going forward with the boat on autopilot, while I'm tethered and wearing a life jacket, seems a reasonable activity.)

>>On my Ty Weekender, I did not have any autopilot or tiller tamer.<<

Remember that tiller tamer is a registered trademark for an expensive solution that you can pretty much replicate for free with a piece of light line.

>>I just tried to get her headed up into the wind as close as I could, make sure the mainsheet was fully free and then raise (or lower) the mainsail.<<

Without autopilot, the bow will blow off. If there's a good breeze, you might not get the mail all the way up but the partially raised sail will turn the boat back upwind. Take your time as you don't need to race from the cockpit to the mast. This will greatly increase the odds you will stay on the boat.

[Dean Abramson]

Robert, I did not mean to highjack the thread and steer it to autopilots. I am no expert, but I think it is a very useful tool, and if you already have it, great. Like Neil says, you cannot eliminate risk, you only manage it. A harness and tether (which you probably also already have) and common sense will almost certainly keep you from falling in.

And as Steve said, if you cannot reef from the cockpit too, what's the point? It's while reefing that the boat is more likely to be in "sporty" conditions.

But mostly, I don't recommend drilling large holes in your new boat until you have sailed it some, even if you have to get a mate for the first few times. Look in the newspaper under "escort services...?" :-)

That's IMHO. But really, mon, do what you want to...

Dean

[Steve Laume]

I like everything at the mast. There is already enough clutter of lines in the cockpit without inviting any more. If or rather when a slide jambs I am there to deal with it. When reefing, I am right there to see what is going on with the sail and there is far less friction in the system by keeping it at the mast.

While the mast area is not as secure or dry as the cockpit, it is a safe place to work. You have good handholds going forward and once at the mast, you can clip to it or a windward shroud with a short tether. You have the mast and boom to lean against as well as the lower shrouds. The motion at the mast is also pretty easy. I have been toying with the idea of making up a pin rail to go between my lower shrouds. This would not only be a great place to tie off unused, halyards but could act as a safety bar if mounted at the right height.

As far as the auto helm is concerned; I would never disengage it while working at the mast. My only concern is staying on the boat, not what would happen if I fell. I always try to create a very stable platform before I go forward. If I am reefing I set the boat up to sail close hauled on a starboard tack and keep the main drawing slightly so it doesn't flop around. The last thing I would ever want to happen is for the boat to head up and possibly tack. If you saw it coming you would have to stop in the middle of things and hurry back to the helm. Hurrying is not a good thing if you are concerned about staying on board. If you don't foresee the problem and the boat tacks you have a big mess on your hands and a much more dangerous situation. You are now on a port tack and the low side after having to deal with flogging sails, a swinging boom and a boat that is bobbing into the waves instead of sailing a steady and predictable course.

How about some electrical up grades? Maybe an asymmetrical spinnaker? What about a nice line controlled traveler? How old are the standing rigging and life lines? I am sure we could help you fine a way to spend a bunch of money on your new baby, Steve.

[Dean Abramson]

I am like Steve. An at-the-mast guy. For all his reasons.

It would be pretty easy to rig a poly trip line, which you trail from the stern to disengage a tiller autopilot, if you are so inclined.

But just pretend you are in Maine. That falling-off thing? We just don't do it.

Then there is this. If you have rigged lines for hoisting, dousing and reefing, then you have to go forward anyway (stuck slide, whatever, it's inevitable), then you have that many more things to trip over and possibly fall in the water...

[Steve Laume]

And you know that slide is only going to stick at the worst possible time. It will not allow you to get the reef in until you go forward to free it, then back to continue, all of this with the main a mess and the possibility or another trip forward before you are done.

Even if all goes smoothly you still have to climb up on the cabin top to tidy up the foot of the main with your reef lines. This is something I tend to do on my way back to the cockpit. One trip per reef.

I also have reefing capability on my staysail. That has only been used on a couple of occasions. Much less fun than the main because there is going to be water coming over the foredeck if the reef is needed. For that one I could see running the lines at least as far aft as the mast but don't see a practical way to do it and it is very seldom that it ever gets used.

Sailing is a water sport, Steve.