CD28 Rudder post question

[DaveCD28]

Hey guys,

I have an issue with my CD28 rudder that I'm wanting to understand:

I had the boat out of the water and the rudder is solidly attached. I tried moving it up and down and left and right, and it turned properly but it was secure. However, I have noticed (before and since it was hauled) that if I lift up on the tiller connection, the post (looking from inside the cockpit) slides up and down. It's not the connection between the tiller and post, but the post itself slides up and down. I've only slid it up and down a 1/2 inch or so, for fear of the rudder falling off until I properly understand the issue. The section of the post where the tiller connects appears to be stainless steel, but the owners manual, and my visual inspection, says the rudder post is made from bronze at the rudder. The tiller turns the rudder with no play in the post, so I believe the connection is good, just not secured. It appears that there must be a stainless steel section of post where the tiller connects, which somehow engages the bronze section inside the tube.

So my questions are:
Is there a section of stainless steel post that slides onto the actual bronze rudder post from the top?
If so, how is it normally secured? I saw no mention of this in the manual illustration.
Does anyone else have this issue?

I will be going offshore on an extended trip next May and need to get this resolved.

Thanks,
Dave

[Oswego John]

The section of the post where the tiller connects appears to be stainless steel, but the owners manual, and my visual inspection, says the rudder post is made from bronze at the rudder.

This is the part that throws me off the trail. You say that the section of the post where the tiller connects *APPEARS* to be stainless. Next, you state that the owners manual and your *VISUAL INSPECTION* say that it is made of bronze at the rudder.

It appears that there must be a stainless steel section of post where the tiller connects, which somehow engages the bronze section inside the tube.

I think that I see what you are getting at. You think that maybe somewhere along the rudder post there is a connection where a SS section of the upper post is joined to a lower section of bronze.

So my questions are:
Is there a section of stainless steel post that slides onto the actual bronze rudder post from the top?
If so, how is it normally secured? I saw no mention of this in the manual illustration.

I have never seen or heard of anything like this. I am having trouble of even imagining joining dissimilar metals under water. Any rudder post for these boats is made of one continuous piece of stock. It is true, some are made of bronze, some of SS.

The 1/2" of vertical play of the post is at the lower end of the post sitting in the gudgeon attached to the lower aft section of the false keel. This could be the cause of serious trouble. While the boat is on the hard, make sure that the post can't be lifted so much that the post can jump out of the gudgeon.

If this, for some unknown reason, should happen while out at sea, it will be next to impossible for the post to be inserted back into its gudgeon because of the pendulum effect of the slanted rudder post.

Good luck with this.

O J

Thanks,
Dave[/quote]

[Oswego John]

Hmmm,

On second thought, I believe that the CD 28 rudder post is bent inside of the rudder blade, not continuous through to the gudgeon. The post has to miss passing through the aperture where the prop and shaft are.

I am not too familiar with the CD 28, but way in the back of my mind I think that there is a lower piece of metal that is attached to the bottom of the blade. This lower piece rests in the gudgeon.

Therefore, it might be possible to have a SS post at the tiller strap and a bronze support resting in the bronze gudgeon.

But do check the vertical play at the gudgeon, as previously mentioned.

O J

[DaveCD28]

The 1/2" of vertical play of the post is at the lower end of the post sitting in the gudgeon attached to the lower aft section of the false keel. This could be the cause of serious trouble. While the boat is on the hard, make sure that the post can't be lifted so much that the post can jump out of the gudgeon.

If this, for some unknown reason, should happen while out at sea, it will be next to impossible for the post to be inserted back into its gudgeon because of the pendulum effect of the slanted rudder post.

Good luck with this.

O J

Thanks for responding, John.

As I stated, I checked the rudder when it was on the hard and it doesn't seem to be able to be moved up and down. What appears to be moving is the top section of the post sliding up and down inside the tube in the cockpit. Because it doesn't take much pressure at all to get it to slide up, I can't see that I'm lifting the whole rudder unless the rudder is very bouyant. I'll have to get someone to lift it while I'minthe water to see if in fact the rudder is moving, but I don't think it is. When I move the tiller, I can see the top section of post pivoting in such a way as to indicate that the connection may be just below the bearing.

The basic question I should have asked to be clear is:
Does anyone else with a Cape Dory 28 have a stainless steel top section of rudder post? If so, how is it secured to the bronze section?

Or, when you pull up on the tiller connection point (Bronze or SS tube) does it slide upwards?

It could be that a previous owner repaired a damaged post by installing a stainless steel section that engages the bronze section. But before I start tearing it apart I want to find out if there are any other boats that are like this. Mine is a 1978.

[Brian2]

Our 1987 CD 28 has ss post all the way. When the boat is on the hard, I can lift the rudder slightly, and the post raises with it. The rudder, tiller, and post all raise as one unit. If your post is raising without the rudder raising at the same time, that would imply that the rudder is not attached to the post, and so, the rudder would be swinging uncontrollably and independently and you would have no steerage under sail (or power). If you have steerage, I suspect all is fine. The rudder/post is made to lift slightly. It shouldn't be coming out of the shoe. If the rudder is attached to the post, the rudder can only lift so far before it hits the bottom of the boat. If the post has become detached from the rudder, and is in effect raising thru the rudder, I would think that (as stated above) you would be having mucho mucho trouble steering.

[Brian2]

Although, if your post is in two parts and the attachment point is just below the tiller as you say may be the case, there must be a type of "key" system to lock the two together. In such a case, I suppose it would be possible to separate the tiller from the post. On the hard or a calm mooring you could lift the tiller to see if it does come right off. If so, you should be able to align the "key" slots and reattach. However, I would suspect that if it was going to come off, it would do so under normal 10 - 15 know sailing, and you would have found out by now by accident. I know when we sail, there is weather helm, and we sit on the seats or stand, and move around. Some friends of mine sail standing up, with the tiller vertical, which I don't like to see as all the pressure is on one small part of the bronze tiller thingy (the part name escapes me). I would think if it were lose, it would lift off under those circumstances.

[DaveCD28]

Although, if your post is in two parts and the attachment point is just below the tiller as you say may be the case, there must be a type of "key" system to lock the two together. In such a case, I suppose it would be possible to separate the tiller from the post. On the hard or a calm mooring you could lift the tiller to see if it does come right off. If so, you should be able to align the "key" slots and reattach. However, I would suspect that if it was going to come off, it would do so under normal 10 - 15 know sailing, and you would have found out by now by accident. I know when we sail, there is weather helm, and we sit on the seats or stand, and move around. Some friends of mine sail standing up, with the tiller vertical, which I don't like to see as all the pressure is on one small part of the bronze tiller thingy (the part name escapes me). I would think if it were lose, it would lift off under those circumstances.

Thanks for the response, Brian.

I have been sailing the boat almost two years like this, sometimes in some fairly rough conditions (30+kts), so I agree that if the rudder was going to come out it probably would have, or maybe I've just been lucky? I lifted on it when the boat was out of the water, but I will have to recheck. I will anchor it out on a calm morning this weekend (if TS Emily doesn't make an appearance) and lift it as far as it will go to see. I really seems to be some kind of two-part rudder post and it's moving near the cockpit floor bearing, but maybe it is in fact lifting the rudder and I was lifting the rudder straight up on the hard rather than at an angle backwards so that's why it didn't move. Maybe it's just the normal movement and I'm concerned over nothing. I'll update this thread after this weekend and let you know what I find out.

[Jim Lewis]

The rudder shaft on the CD30K has a (for no other word) nipple that over time wears flat.....allowing the shaft to have play. I put stainless washers to take up the space, but not sure how long it will be before they wear.....they have been in there over a year and no noticeable wear so far.......this is not a fun job....you have to remove the bottom piece that is covered with about a inch and a half of fiberglass and then knock the pins out so you can get to the shaft......I hope the washers last......good luck with your adventure......

[S/V Necessity]

The post on my CD28 is entirely stainless fwiw.

[DaveCD28]

Thanks for the information, guys. It looks (so far) like TS Emily will spare us so this Saturday I will anchor in some shallow water and figure out what's really going on. I will report back with my findings.

I sure hope I don't have to haul her out and remove the rudder. If I do, that's going to be an unexpected and messy job.

[DaveCD28]

Okay, good news.

Well, after diving on the rudder today in shallow water I tied a line around the rudder and lifted it against the underside of the hull. The pin stayed in, and when I climbed back in the boat (leaving the rudder where it was) the distance the post came up was just a little farther distance than it moved previously when I pulled up from inside the cockpit.

So the bottom line is there is one continuous post like a normal setup, and although there is what seems like alot of play, the bottom rudder pin does not come out of the keel shoe. When the boat was on the hard I tried lifting the rudder and it was pretty heavy, and also there was what looked like green oxidation (the same thing bronze does over time) around the small bit of post between the hull and the rudder, so I assumed it was bronze. In the water the rudder apparently has alot of bouyancy so when I lift the post at the tiller connection, it only takes a little effort to make it slide up in the tube. This made me think I was only lifting a little section of steel rod, when actually I was lifting the entire rudder. I never tried to lift it to where it would stop because I was afraid of something coming apart. But I verified today that where it stops is where the rudder contacts the hull.

So basically is it's a normal single continuos post setup that has about a 1-1/4 inch vertical movement, which seems a little excessive to me, but the pin does not come loose. So YAY! Also, the post is apparently stainless steel, so there must have been some old green antifouling paint or something which made the post look like oxidized bronze where it enters the rudder.

Thanks all for the info provided....

-Dave

[Brian2]

Hello,

The rudder shoe (what the post rests in; and the shoe is attached to the keel) is probably bronze. I am almost 100% mine is. My tiller attachment is also bronze. But the post is SS.

[dawnhoward]

My Shoe & Rudder post is Bronze

[Steve Laume]

An inch and a quarter is a lot of movement. I don't know how much the average CD rudder moves , vertically, or if it ever does while sailing but this seems excessive. It also seems like you would be perilously close to disengaging from the shoe. You definitely don't want this to happen! It could ruin your whole day as the rudder post would most likely bend and jamb at the worst possible time if it were to occur.

I would take a good close look at the rudder shaft and the upper bearing. There must be a stop or set screw to keep the thing from riding up and down. If not, it might be a good addition to prevent the amount of movement you are experiencing, Steve.

[DaveCD28]

An inch and a quarter is a lot of movement. I don't know how much the average CD rudder moves , vertically, or if it ever does while sailing but this seems excessive. It also seems like you would be perilously close to disengaging from the shoe. You definitely don't want this to happen! It could ruin your whole day as the rudder post would most likely bend and jamb at the worst possible time if it were to occur.

I would take a good close look at the rudder shaft and the upper bearing. There must be a stop or set screw to keep the thing from riding up and down. If not, it might be a good addition to prevent the amount of movement you are experiencing, Steve.

I'm well aware of the implications of the rudder coming out of the shoe, which is why I looked into this in the first place. Maybe it's only an inch of movement, as I was eyeing it. The bushing doesn't move, just the rudder post. The rudder moves up until it the top of the rudder contacts the bottom of the hull, and it's a little over an inch. From pictures I've seen, the pin is several inches long so I believe I am fine. I lifted it, jammed it side to side, and it wasn't the slightest loose. It just was able to move up and down.

Maybe everyone with a Cape Dory 28 can lift up on thier rudder posts and report how far they move?