CD36 Staysail Traveller

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

I'm inspired by the Mahalo photos which you can see here:

http://www.sailmahalo.com/picture_colle ... ahalo2011/

It may seem odd that I, the owner of a CD36, would ask the following questions. However, I lack experience with this boat because I have have never actually sailed my CD36. I bought her and immediately began a refit. I have sailed on another CD36, and on a Robinhood 36, but I didn't pay enough attention to the functionality of the staysail traveller. I have assumptions and questions:

As far as I know, CD36s were NOT originally equipped with block-and-tackle traveller controls. I don't know if the staysail traveller originally came with stops. There is a traveller, but apparently in the factory plan, the functionality is that the staysail sheet is run through the roller-car on the traveller, but in the absence of "stops", the car is free to find it's own position on the traveller. As the sheet tightens, the car moves closer to the centerline. As the sheet loosens, the car moves away from the centerline. This might provide somewhat of a "vang effect". Am I right so far? Do you folks who regularly sail the CD36 as a cutter have moveable stops on the staysail traveller? Do you often adjust them? Maybe just one compromise position for reaching and possibly another for running? Have any other CD36s or any other Cape Dory Cutters of any length been modified this way? If so has anyone experienced significant performance advantages? What are these?

The point of all this is: I'm trying to decide if I should adopt the plan shown in the Mahalo photos referenced above. If so, I want to do it soon, before the deck is painted. As far as I know (which isn't much) this is the only CD36 that has been modified in this manner. I can easily imagine that this re-design would provide additional staysail shape control, and that this might somehow improve the "slot effect" problems that have traditionally been blamed for cutters not being able to point as high as sloops. Does this make sense? I'm wondering if, as the guardians of Mahalo gain some experience with this setup, they will learn how to coax their CD36 to point as high and as fast as a sloop. Thoughts? Opinions? Should I do this??

P.S. I've already decided to adopt almost exactly John Danicic's mainsail traveller setup, which I think will be great.

This board is AMAZING!!

[David van den Burgh]

Folks,

I'm inspired by the Mahalo photos which you can see here:

http://www.sailmahalo.com/picture_colle ... ahalo2011/

It may seem odd that I, the owner of a CD36, would ask the following questions. However, I lack experience with this boat because I have have never actually sailed my CD36. I bought her and immediately began a refit. I have sailed on another CD36, and on a Robinhood 36, but I didn't pay enough attention to the functionality of the staysail traveller. I have assumptions and questions:

As far as I know, CD36s were NOT originally equipped with block-and-tackle traveller controls. I don't know if the staysail traveller originally came with stops. There is a traveller, but apparently in the factory plan, the functionality is that the staysail sheet is run through the roller-car on the traveller, but in the absence of "stops", the car is free to find it's own position on the traveller. As the sheet tightens, the car moves closer to the centerline. As the sheet loosens, the car moves away from the centerline. This might provide somewhat of a "vang effect". Am I right so far? Do you folks who regularly sail the CD36 as a cutter have moveable stops on the staysail traveller? Do you often adjust them? Maybe just one compromise position for reaching and possibly another for running? Have any other CD36s or any other Cape Dory Cutters of any length been modified this way? If so has anyone experienced significant performance advantages? What are these?

The point of all this is: I'm trying to decide if I should adopt the plan shown in the Mahalo photos referenced above. If so, I want to do it soon, before the deck is painted. As far as I know (which isn't much) this is the only CD36 that has been modified in this manner. I can easily imagine that this re-design would provide additional staysail shape control, and that this might somehow improve the "slot effect" problems that have traditionally been blamed for cutters not being able to point as high as sloops. Does this make sense? I'm wondering if, as the guardians of Mahalo gain some experience with this setup, they will learn how to coax their CD36 to point as high and as fast as a sloop. Thoughts? Opinions? Should I do this??

P.S. I've already decided to adopt almost exactly John Danicic's mainsail traveller setup, which I think will be great.

This board is AMAZING!!

Troy,

Only VERY rarely have we adjusted the stops on the staysail traveler. Most of the time the car is located amidships. If you were to make it easily adjustable, you might as well lead the lines aft so you can adjust them from the cockpit lest the hardware go unused.

[Troy Scott]

David,

I agree. If I make this change, I will definitely lead the two control lines aft.

Have you ever experimented with other positions? I wonder if tweaking this location can really influence staysail shape enough to help.

[David van den Burgh]

Troy,

If I'm remembering correctly, the only times we've adjusted the traveler have been when we're running and we wanted to prevent the staysail to windward because we had the jib poled out to leeward. Now that we've added a drifter, we just drop the staysail off the wind in light air.

[John Stone]

Troy,
Have you considered eliminating the staysail boom altogether? Free up the foredeck and eliminate the boom as a hazard on the foredeck. Think it will lead to better control over the stay sail shape as well. Requires adding some leads. I plan to install two small winches on the aft outside edge of the cabin top near the compaionway hatch on the Far Reach. Other than the "self-tacking" feature of a club foot stay-sail I don't see the advantage of the boom but I do see a lot of cons. Something to consider. No right or wrong . . . just personal choices.

John

[Troy Scott]

I actually like the self-tacking staysail. So John, if you eliminate the boom do you keep the traveller? Or do you run two sheets aft like the Yankee and forget the original setup altogether?

[John Stone]

Troy,
I eliminated the traveler entirely. Two lines running aft, on either side, through leads, port and starboard, to separate winches. Simple and strong. But, if you like the self-tacking stay-sail, and lots of folks do, then you are surely on the right track--keep the original installation or perhaps allow for minor modification . . . which is what I think you were asking in your original post. I was just offering an alternative. I guess it just depends on what you are looking for. I desire a very strong staysail, slightly larger by moving the tack forward 22-24", with reef points that will power the Far Reach when I hand the jib and start reefing the main. I prefer not to have a staysail boom on the foredeck swinging back and fourth, when sailing in strong winds. Again, no right or wrong, just another option.

John

[mahalocd36]

Troy, our original traveller had stops so it wasn't free to roam anywhere.

We've adjusted our staysail traveller in 2 situations. 1, going downwind wing+wing with the yankee . 2, really trying to point in higher winds adjust to windward to get it flatter.

And I wouldn't give up the self tacking staysail, but, personal choice.

We didn't run the new line-controlled traveller lines to the cockpit at this time, we'll try it the way it is and see. We always have the option to later.

[Troy Scott]

Melissa,

Thanks for the information about the stops in the original system. I was under the impression that there were none. With this in mind, theoretically it should have been possible, even before you all installed the new system, to experiment with various locations along the traveller on various points of sail. I'm sure you all must have done this, and I'm guessing that the results of this experimentation led you to believe the new staysail traveller system would be an improvement. However, the original sheeting system was quite different. Does your new setup provide better control over staysail shape? Are you able to point higher with the new staysail traveller? Does it provide better shape downwind?

I apologize for asking so many questions. I know you all haven't yet had a great deal of experience with the improved system.

John Danicic provided a list of all the parts he required to create his new mainsail traveller system. This has been a tremendous help and a time saver. I hate to ask: Do you suppose you could provide a list of the parts you bought to create your staysail traveller control system? That would be a tremendous help to me. Were you able to use the original track?

WRT running the control lines aft, I see in the photos what I believe to be jacklines running just inboard of your handrails. This is the general position I believe I would use to run the staysail control traveller lines aft, through three or four fairleads. Does this sound reasonable to you?

[bottomscraper]

Melissa,

Thanks for the information about the stops in the original system. I was under the impression that there were none. With this in mind, theoretically it should have been possible, even before you all installed the new system, to experiment with various locations along the traveller on various points of sail. I'm sure you all must have done this, and I'm guessing that the results of this experimentation led you to believe the new staysail traveller system would be an improvement. However, the original sheeting system was quite different. Does your new setup provide better control over staysail shape? Are you able to point higher with the new staysail traveller? Does it provide better shape downwind?

We have only had the boat out on two weekends since the boat
was launched this season. Weather and work haven't been
helping. Anyway the point is we really haven't had a chance to
use it much. I can tell you that with the old stop system there
were times we should have adjusted the staysail traveller but
didn't because it was a PITA. Cathy and Bruce of CD32 Realization
also changed the sheeting of the staysail. I believe they ran
the sheet forward to the base of the boom and then back to
the cockpit. This also eliminated the weird "A" sheeting
that makes little sense to me. The "A" sheeting always
has a significant component of force pulling from a direction
that you don't want.

I apologize for asking so many questions. I know you all haven't yet had a great deal of experience with the improved system.

John Danicic provided a list of all the parts he required to create his new mainsail traveller system. This has been a tremendous help and a time saver. I hate to ask: Do you suppose you could provide a list of the parts you bought to create your staysail traveller control system? That would be a tremendous help to me. Were you able to use the original track?

All of the parts are from Garhauer. The new track is model MT-1CT,
custom bent and drilled (no extra cost). The stand up block
is 40-19US, the double block attached to the traveler is a 40-17US
and the double block on the boom is a 40-18US. The deck
organizer is a 40-DO-TB. Note that the original sheet blocks
on the boom were attached with some very small boom tangs
and self tapping screws, these were replaced with a boom bail
thru bolted with a compression block inside. The boom bail is
BB-1 but needed to be bent closed a little bit to fit. The
compression block was made from some HDPE plastic. I would
suggest getting a hard copy of the Garhauer catalog, the pictures
and descriptions are better than the web site.

WRT running the control lines aft, I see in the photos what I believe to be jacklines running just inboard of your handrails. This is the general position I believe I would use to run the staysail control traveller lines aft, through three or four fairleads. Does this sound reasonable to you?

That line is not a jack line, it is the outhaul for the staysail. You
will need an outhaul if you have your staysail on a furler. This line
runs from a winch on the stbd side cabin top, up the deck thru two
fairleads to a block attached to the base of the staysail boom,
along the boom to a block at the end of the boom to the clew
of the staysail. Most of this can be seen in the pictures if you
look real close.

I guess I'm a bit negative on the idea of running the staysail
traveller controls back to the cockpit. It might be nice to have
on a dark stormy night but when you consider all of the lines
you will have in the cockpit it gets rather busy.



Rich

[K_LeMans]

Not to contradict anyone, but this is my experience messing with the staysail boom and traveler........ primarily on the Left coast in heavy air.......... In lighter air, as David suggested, there isn't much need to adjust the traveler from amidships.

You have two ways to control the shape of the staysail when using the boom/traveler arrangement. The outhaul primarily controls the draft of the sail, and at least on my boat, a CD30, the sail is very sensitive to this setting. Harden the outhaul, and you will flatten the sail (de-power). The traveler position is going to affect the twist of the leech. More twist, more power (to a point), but also power up high, and more tendency to heel the boat. Moving the traveler to the LEE increases the sheet's downward leverage on the leech, and prevents the sail from twisting off. In heavy air, limiting twist reduces power high in the sail and reduces heel.

If I had several spare boat dollars, I would spend them on a line control mainsheet traveler first, but having that setup on the staysail traveler as well would be great!

[Troy Scott]

Thank You.

During the night I became increasingly embarrassed at having asked you to provide so much information. I awoke prepared to suggest that you "never mind" because I could enlarge the photos and "figure it out" based on the Garhauer catalog. BUT, when I checked the board this morning, there it was/is! Thank you so much and I do apologize for the bother.

Please keep me informed as you gain experience with your Staysail traveller setup!

[Troy Scott]

Kevin,

I sincerely appreciate that lesson. I've always had the habit (apparently wrong) of "cheating" a little by trying to move the traveller slightly to windward to help the boat point higher. I always assumed the extra heeling involved was due to other factors. This is good to add to my "bag of tricks". MY PROBLEM is that I've always sailed (well not lately ) but at 59 I've never had a LESSON. Maybe I should. But AFTER the boat is back in the water! Problem is: discussions like this often are initiated because of my lack of real knowledge. I've sailed a lot (and flown a lot). I remember when I was flying a lot we used to discuss why some pilots just never got any better, despite having hundreds (sometimes thousands) of hours. We decided that the pilots in question had simply flown the same hours, making the same mistakes, over and over and over. I don't want to sail that way.

One big problem I anticipate is that, although I have a LOT of time on the water, and a lot of that time was in (smaller) Cape Dorys, I've spent too long a hiatus from sailing, and I'm about to launch and Captain the most complex boat I've even owned. It's a bit daunting! I expect to make mistakes. I hope those who see these mistakes will kindly step forward and offer suggestions and solutions. In fact, I have NO intention of just setting out on my own at first. I want experienced folks with me, keeping me out of trouble. Maybe you'll be one of those!

[John Danicic]

Troy:

The staysail boom is nice for single handed tacking situations. I do like it but it makes for a challenging, but doable roller reefing system. Do you have a furler for the stay sail?

The staysail track on Mariah came with little screw down, sliding stops. Mostly, we leave the car centered unless I am in a fussy, sail tweaking mood and head forward to slide the car up or down wind. Melissa describes nicely how and when I use it as well. The blocks and tackle with lines led to the cockpit would undoubtably be nice and the way to go but I think if you have any kind of budget it would be somewhere just above a feathering prop and self tailing halyard winches on my list of updates. IMHO.

By all means, do the mainsheet traveler update and sail the boat awhile with the staysail as is to see what you think.

[Troy Scott]

OK John, got it!

(But I can't help thinking about it.)