Pitch the Pole, Good Old Boat Nov/Dec 2010 page 58

[Troy Scott]

This article is about flying and dousing a symmetrical spinnaker without a pole, like we normally use a gennaker or an asymmetrical spinnaker. The reason given is that these sails are apparently plentiful used, though I can't imagine why. I'd like to get some opinions about flying a used symmetrical spinnaker this way. It seems like it might work, but only in a very limited range. I imagine a new Flasher would be much more versatile. However, based on the author's numbers, buying a used symmetrical spinnaker instead of a new aspin might save more than one boat unit ($1K). Questions: In the (probably) limited range of a symmetrical spinnaker in such an application, might the sail actually produce more power than an Aspin? (I'm thinking about the full shoulders.) Would a Flasher be a whole lot better? Would the deliberately misused symmetrical sail be worth having if you already have a Flasher?

[JWSutcliffe]

I bought a used symmetrical spinnaker and sock (separately) on EBay last year for about $300 total. We have tried flying the symmetrical spinnaker without pole, and regardless of point of wind it is simply too unstable for us to manage it. I can get it to fill and stay filled for a minute or two, but invariably one of the leaches will begin to roll back on itself and the whole sail quickly wraps up. With a pole in place, the spinnaker is well behaved (at least in the up to 10 knot winds we have dares fly it in.) Beyond 10 knots we find the spinnaker too much to handle for just the two of us. At or below 10 knots it is a pleasure and really boosts downwind speeds. Above 10 knots we can make hull speed downwind with just the 110% poled out.

[Troy Scott]

Skip,

Based on your experience, I would have to conclude that this is an ill conceived idea. I suspected as much. Usually GOB magazine has good, practical articles. This one may be a bit off the mark. I'll reserve final judgement for now.....; Some positive comments may show up yet!

[K_LeMans]

I found the article pretty uninformative myself. It discusses early on the purchase of an "ATN Tacker" in addition to the sock. Never explained the purpose of the "Tacker" or how it's deployed. Guess I'll have to go to the ATN website.
Pretty much a waste of paper to give two pages to a discussion of how to load a spinny in a sock..........

[Steve Laume]

I have a reacher and an old symmetrical spinnaker for Raven.

I use the reacher without a sock. It is good for a fairly broad range of conditions, both wind and headings. Even with this sail it is good to have a pole aboard. It never seems to work very well directly down wind. That is where a symmetrical spinnaker flown as it was intended really seems to pull the boat along in light winds. I have never tried to set the spinnaker without the pole or tacked to the stem. In these conditions the reacher would be a better choice and is easier to deal with. I do have a sock for the spinnaker and can set it alone but it takes me a while. For the price of one of these older sails it is way fun to have one when the conditions are just right. You might get more use out of it if you sailed with competent crew on a regular basis.

If I didn't have the reacher I might play with the spinnaker a bit more but sails are like pick up trucks and hound dogs, you can't have too many, Steve.

[river-rat]

I frequently single hand on the Columbia River where we have a significant current opposing the usual afternoon winds. To make good progress upstream I fly a symmetrical spinnaker tacked to the head stay without a main sail.

The sail flies easily and can be gibed with a lazy sheet led around the head stay. I have used an asymmetrical with and without a main sail but have found better speed and control with the symmetrical sail for the generally dead down wind direction.

I do use a sliding fitting over the furled jib to attach the tack to the head stay. A down haul to the fitting allows the "luff" of the spinnaker to be tensioned if the run changes to a reach. This fitting is the equivalent of the ATN Tacker that I made out of PVC Pipe parts. I have also tried an attachment with parrel beads but find the PVC works better because I can leave it attached to the head stay just above the furling drum.

Note that the entire set up including a used spinnaker, used sock, and tack fitting was under $200.

[Jeff and Sarah]

Symmetrical spinnakers are often available used because they stretch and distort so quickly they are often nearly useless (to racers) after a year or two in a racing environment. Many people buy them for a single regatta (my last racing spinnaker had been used in 5 short races over 3 days in winds 12 knots and below)- I bought it used because to the previous owner, it had served it's useful life. For cruisers, it's not so important- especially if you can find a chute with slightly heavier than normal cloth. The plus side to this is the chute will also be a bit smaller and easier to handle. You'll never get the full benefit of flying a symmetrical spinnaker without a pole, but it will certainly be better than nothing. They aren't reachers though, and they aren't very good at all for that purpose. When race courses are not quite square to the wind, I typically prefer older chutes that have stretched a bit because you can torque their shape a little- good new symmetrical chutes pretty much go deep downwind and not much else. Anyway, if you can get a cheap symmetrical it's worth it just for the fun of playing around with it. Poles really aren't that hard though, and if you are willing to fly it pole-less because gybes sound hair-raising with a pole, just drop the pole, gybe, then rehoist it. If you shift the pole rather than dip it in the gybe, you're already running the same sheet and guy set-up anyway.

Jeff

[Troy Scott]

Jeff,

Regarding the reason for used spinnakers being plentiful: Now that you mention it I do recall stories about how racers "blow out" spinnakers in short order. It does make sense that they would be for sale relatively cheap. That's another world to me. I can't imagine being that competitive. I like for my things to last.

This does suggest another possiblity: Do folks ever buy these "slightly used" symmetrical sails to have them rebuilt as asymmetrical spinnakers? Is this a reasonable idea? Would it save anything? What would be involved?

[Jeff and Sarah]

Without trying to sound coy, I would liken that to recutting a main to become a genoa. The sails are pretty different though the materials are the same. You can ask a sail maker about it, but from a user end (the guy flying the chutes), I don't see how it be worth the effort/money- it would be cheaper to just find a used asymm.

I'd love to get a spinnaker for my boat- they really aren't that hard to use even though people seem to be nervous about them. I think the misunderstanding of their difficulty comes from the racing world where a wrapped hoist or botched douse can really lose a race or cause trouble at a crowded mark rounding, but in most cruising there is no haste- just take your time.

Asymmetricals really work better off a sprit but lots of people are figuiring out acceptable work arounds for their boats. I think the bow pulpit would make it difficult to adequately fly an asymm on a CD but there is probably a solution to be found. I suppose you could use an extended cloth at the tack to keep the foot of the sail above the puplit- that might work but it would reduce the sail's size quite a bit. Since you ease the cloth of an asymm to sail deeper this would help you get closer to symmetrical azimuths (though still not nearly as deep), but you'd lose a lot of height potential.

Asymms are typically used on planning hulls, not the likes of a CD, but added horsepower never hurts (until you are overpowered that is).

You've got me thinking now... I need to find an old spinnaker somewhere...

-Boats are fun.
Jeff

[Steve Laume]

Raven's set up for the reacher might be the best you could do for a asymmetrical.

I had already added a heavy, stainless, Windline bow roller. I drilled a hole in the vertical flange closest to the center line. I added a shackle and block that normally hangs out of the way of the anchor. When flying the reacher, I run a line from the tack of the sail, through the bow roller block, back along the side deck with a snatch block, to a winch. This keeps everything outside of the bow pulpit and gives me some control over the tension of the luff from the cockpit.

So far the bow roller has been up to handling the loads.

Raven has two sets of sheet winches which come in handy in all sorts of situations. This is one of them. I use the aft ones I added most of the time to sheet the jib so everything is handy from the helm, Steve.

[Troy Scott]

Steve,

Your method of handling the tackline sounds like what I've been thinking. I have two anchor rollers, side by side at the end of the 'sprit. They are as ideally located as I can find for the spinnaker tack without adding hardware. We'll see.

Jeff,

I haven't really considered buying a used spinnaker for any purpose. I want a new Flasher. The only way I would ever buy a used sail is if I accidentally tripped over a real bargain on something so similar to the new one that I would feel foolish not buying it. Not that I'm wealthy by any means....., it's just that I've learned that lesson. This whole discussion started because of my curiosity about the article in GOB, nothing more.

[Troy Scott]

Speaking of poles and aspin tack points...., Does anyone remember years ago this one of Hobie's ideas (that I think probably didn't "catch on" even though I like it): There was a pole attached horizontally to the top of either a sturdy bow pulpit of maybe just to the stem fitting. I remember the photo showed the pole more or less horizontal and more or less perpendicular to the centerline of the boat. The pole could be articulated. I think I remember he attached both lower corners of the spinnaker to this pole. It always seemed to me that this should work well, though I never tried it. Again, just wintertime discussion here......

[M. R. Bober]

Speaking of poles and aspin tack points...., Does anyone remember years ago this one of Hobie's ideas (that I think probably didn't "catch on" even though I like it): There was a pole attached horizontally to the top of either a sturdy bow pulpit of maybe just to the stem fitting. I remember the photo showed the pole more or less horizontal and more or less perpendicular to the centerline of the boat. The pole could be articulated. I think I remember he attached both lower corners of the spinnaker to this pole. It always seemed to me that this should work well, though I never tried it. Again, just wintertime discussion here......

Troy, I believe that Garry Hoyt developed--and patented--the Hoyt "Gun Mount" spinnaker. Give credit where it is due. He is a very creative guy. [Ed. note: Clever nautical pun.]



Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster (where most gun mounts are in the rear windows of pickup trucks,) VA

[Troy Scott]

Well, so much for the integrity of the gray cells.
Let's find a photo. Aha, here's an ancient video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx7bMnQgRoY

[kerlandsen]

I made a white oak sprit. Tack the asymm down there.
My headstay is fractional, so I made the spin halyard full hoist, a ton more area.

The asym does not sail as deep as I would like, but light air reaching is a dream. I did have some difficulty sailing downwind in wind and waves. The kite gets blanketed by the main and collapses, then when it fills in 20kts, the homemade bowsprit blows up. I made a new one in a few days, and now I have a small line designed as a safety break, so when it is overloaded, the line breaks and I retreive the kite from the sheet under the main.

[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t107 ... G_4192.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t107 ... G_1221.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t107 ... 082210.jpg[/img]