CD vs modern design

[BillyO]

My sailing experience is limited to three years wth my CD22.
Most of you have WAY more knowledge of these topics.
So, my question is other than the ability to point higher, are the more modern designs [ FIN KEEL, high aspect rato, etc] better sailers than an older Alberg design ?
Or, is there an advantage to a low aspect, full feel boat.
Recently I sailed on a Catalna 27 and was very impressed.
The only negative I saw was in build quality.

[Matt Cawthorne]

Everything is a tradeoff. Generally, lighter and wider make for a stiffer, and faster boat. As a general rule, those same qualities make for lower range of ultimate stability and a less kindly ride in rough conditions.

I use the term 'generally' because there are boats that are heavy and very poor sailing vessels and there are boats that are heavy and good to sail.

So are you going sailing on the bay or the ocean? Even that is a bit harsh, since 99+ percent of the time that a tupperware boat goes across the ocean it will do just fine. Is it important to reduce the risk of a <1% loss to you? That will be a personal decision.

There are lots of other things to think about. One time at a boat show I toured a hunter (I think it was a 37) and was amazed to see that there were no hand holds that would be reachable when travelling in rough conditions. Even if the boat was strong enough to cross the ocean, one could foresee that if the hand-holds were poorly located that they would have a bashed in skull before making it half way across.

You will get as many opinions as you will find sailors to talk to about the subject.

The devil is in the details and there are lots of details. There are lots of good books. This is not a question that can be answered by a single post. It is about you, the conditions you will be in, the amount of money that you have to spend, what you enjoy about sailing and the amenities that you want to have.


Matt

[Mike]

I agree with Matt. Buy the boat that suits what you plan to do. It makes no more sense to spend $500K on an ocean going boat that will never go offshore than it does to tackle the Atlantic in a row boat.

As to modern vs traditional it's all about trade offs. Cape Dory built great boats in their day and well taken care of ones are still great boats. There was lots of junk built back then and to a lesser degree there still is today.

No matter how good the design it is all about build quality. A well built modern design is as capable if not more so when it comes to ocean passages.

[Neil Gordon]

Recently I sailed on a Catalna 27 and was very impressed. The only negative I saw was in build quality.

You can compare boat to boat here: http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

Compare the Cape Dory 27 to the Catalina 27:

The CD weighs 20% more. Some of that weight is in the keel, which translates to a more stable (i.e., less likely to capsize) and more comfortable (in a seaway) boat. Some of that weight is also in the hull, deck and rig, which makes the CD27 more likely to survive if things go badly.

Also, the build quality is not just about how well the interior is joined. How the deck and hull are mated matters, too.

[Klem]

I think that it depends on how you define the term "better sailor". If sailing is all about speed to you, then yes, they are much better especially to windward. The funny thing is though that most people don't get anywhere close to the potential speed out of their boat. I am constantly passing 35' and even 40' boats that are of much faster designs simply because their sails are trimmed poorly. If they really wanted to go fast, they could put a little effort in and they would have no problem passing me. If you want really fast, then look at a multihull.

If you see the fun in sailing as being the sum of all factors, not just speed, a cape dory looks a lot better. They have a very nice motion and sail well even when the wind really pipes up. It is alarming to me how poorly some modern boats sail in 35+ knots of breeze.

Obviously, defining sailing ability of a boat has to do with what you are using it for. For me, I don't need to do 8 knots all the time so it works great.

[MFC]

I'm speaking more from book knowledge here than anything else but . . . I think this is best viewed as a two part question. The first is how a traditional design compares with more modern designs and the second is what you get for your money. There are plenty of beautiful modern design boats (long fin with skeg hung rudder) that are every bit as seaworthy as a full keel boat. The problem is that there aren't many of them that are priced comparably to the Cape Dories. The Crealock designed boats (Pacific Seacrafts) are perfect examples. A C-37 sells for about 2x the price of a comparably equipped CD36. The Halberg Rassy is another gorgeous boat with unquestioned capability and construction. Again however, it is far more expensive than the similarly sized CD's. Those are just 2 examples. The suggestion that modern designs are underbuilt or illequipped for offshore work seems to come from comparing boats by price point (particularly at a lower price point). That's where the Catalina and Hunter comparisons come in. I don't see that as an honest or fair comparison of the general design principals. One thing is for sure, Cape Dories are a fantastic value in terms of the capability they offer for the money.
Matt

[Jim_B]

Think about a seagull and the expenditure that 'mother nature' made in developing the gulls exquisite form to sit on the water and harness the winds.

Then contemplate our man-made equivalent - the dollar - and the ability to sell a boat at a reasonable cost. Then think about the compromised design parameters.

Now, at a harbor of your choice look at the boats tethered to the moorings. Which ones remind you of seagulls?

I'd much rather error on the side of Mother Nature then an ecoomic derivative of Alan Greenspan......

[azucha]

Speed vs sea-kindlyness -- I'll take sea-kindlyness. I have a little experience crossing the Gulf of Mexico (12x) in traditional full or modified keels and new planing boats.

If you've ever been knocked down, then righting capacity becomes an integral part of your planning. I've been on a modified keel boat in 30 knot winds doing foredeck and mast work and still comfortable and safe. The scariest moment I endured at sea was at 3 a.m. one morning in a newish 41' Hunter hanging off the coast of Mexico when an abrupt 50+ knot gust knocked us down. Wasn't sure she was going to right herself. When your standing on the starboard cockpit's coaming and you're perpendicular to the water, you want the gods to exponentially increase the weight in the keel -- fast.

I had a Sparkman & Steven's designed blue-plate cruiser that was tender up to about 27 degrees, then she became stiff and rode everything I encountered without rails in the water.

I'm committed to CDs for design quality, construction certainty, and graceful appearance. CDs look like a sailboat should, IMHO.

[Kevin Kaldenbach]

I sailed a Catalina 400 across the Gulf of Mexico in moderate to brisk winds. We sailed close hauled for seven days. The boat shook and vibrated as it bounced off of the waves to the point that the owner looked up at the gods and cried "leave my boat alone" he then told us the goal was to keep from needing to get into the life raft. A couple month later I sailed across the gulf on a Le Fitte 44. We experienced 30 plus mph winds and 12 foot seas. The boat ploughed thru the seas with no problem. There was no shaking and vibrating but hey the Catalina had two steering wheels and was classified as a ocean class boat.
You cant compare an apple to a stick. I do think that Catalina makes a fine coastal cruiser and I think Andy Vavolotis made a fine blue water boat. My intention is to sail to far away places so I wanted a boat that will take me there safely so I own a Cape Dory.
One last thing, With my full keel Cape Dory I can heave too under a reefed main alone. It sits relatively flat in the water about 50 degrees to the wind. With a fin keel you will need to backwind the jib. This means your jib will be hard against the shrouds and that is not good on the sail.

[Al Levesque]

Boat speed is a two-sided issue. Lighter boats with less underwater drag, faster turning speed, and higher aspect ratios can be fun to sail, especially in local races. In most instances their handicap is not as generous and tends to bring them down to the same level as all the others, but they do cross finish lines faster!

The visitors to our harbor from places like Europe, South Africa, and Australia always seem more substantial than the boats that race locally. I doubt they would race well against the local boats.

Cruising calls for different qualities, including greater stability and dependability. No boat does all things well. I think our Cape Dory fits somewhere between the two ends of the design spectrum. It just happens to be the balance that suits me but I don't expect it to suit everyone.

[Dean Abramson]

It sits relatively flat in the water about 50 degrees to the wind.

Kevin, how is your main trimmed when you do this? How much does the boat move forward?

[Kevin Kaldenbach]

In 25 mph winds the main has one reef in it and the boom is to leeward. The rudder set as if it wants to steer the boat thru irons. This is how I think it works:

The sail tries to power the boat forward and the wheel along with the center of effort being aft steers it closer to the wind. Since the boom is to leeward the sail depowers before the full keel will let the boat pass over to the other tack.

As far as speed, it is usually less then a knot on the GPS but no speed on the thru hull. All adjustments require tweaking depending on wind speeds. I tried heaving too in lighter winds with a full main with no luck once but one of the times my wife and I heaved too in 25 mph winds on a choppy Corpus Christi Bay we actually fell asleep in the cockpit because the keel surface deadens the wave energy.