Tiller VS. Wheel in CD 28 - need more cockpit room!

[warrenescape]

I have owned my CD 28 (Escape) for about 1.5 years and have done a lot of repairs & updating during that time (will post pics) and have come to the conclusion I would like to switch from tiller to wheel - for the sole reason I do not have enough room in the cockpit for people to sit - without them being in the way of the tiller - is there a "to-do" instructions for the change?

I also welcome any sage advice on other thoughts & options regarding this issue (mini-tiller?). With all the changes and work - I probably should have bought a CD30!

On an unrelated note - is the bilge area under the engine open, meaning water cannot be trapped away from the bilge pump? The reason I ask this question, with all the rain we have had in the SF bay area - my bilge filled up and the lower unit went out - thankfully I had installed a second pump between the first pump and the cabin floor which kept the cabin from flooding. What was strange was the fact that the hand pump in the cockpit did not affect this bilge water and lead me to wonder if there are "compartments" in bilge - or is my hand-pump hose plugged or in the wrong location - it has worked in the past w/o issue - appreciate your thoughts - waitin for spring - Warren

[DaveCD28]

To me I think that the wheel might be a little better while sailing when you have to turn, but alot worse at anchor (or dock). You can't tie it up out of the way like you can a tiller. Also with the wheel you don't really know which way the rudder is facing like you do with a tiller.

I guess one good thing would be that if you have inexperienced people aboard, I would think that they would more easily be able to steer the boat with a wheel than a tiller.

I suppose if you could somehow mount the wheel on the back wall of the cockpit (behind where the tiller connects) then it might be pretty good and out of the way...but you still don't know the rudder direction.

As far as the bilge pump issue, make sure your manual bilge pump hose is down in the bottom, and not clogged up with junk, and doesn't have a hole in it somewhere where the pump can suck air rather than the water in the bilge. As far as being compartmentalized, mine doesn't have seperate compartments, and I think that's the original setup.

-Dave

[SPIBob]

Zephyr had wheel steering when I bought her in '99. After about five years I changed back to tiller, which is the original set-up. Looking back I can see positives and negatives for both options. If I had it to do over, I would go with tiller again.

The wheel option does give more cockpit room while underway. The compass is on centerline and directly in front of the helm. Instrument readouts can be clustered there for easy viewing. The wheel gives a greater mechanical advantage meaning less muscle effort to helm. With a SS tubing binnacle guard mounted, you have a nice hand-hold in the center of the cockpit. A folding teak table can be attached which is a very nice feature in port or at anchor. Some folks like the look of a wheel more than tiller.

Some disadvantages include reduced cockpit space when not underway. There is no designed seating for a wheel, so this is an issue. (If you go to a wheel, send me a PM---I still have a seat I made.) Going to and from the helm position is awkward because the layout isn't designed for this. If you have a bimini, it's harder to see the sails. The helmsperson is at the back of the cockpit and can't easily reach jib sheets (or main sheet with a cabintop traveler). And there are more moving parts to fail.

But the biggest disadvantage for me was that all that additional weight aft---the wheel, the binnacle, instruments, autopilot, underdeck pulleys mounts, cables and quadrant, the seat and the helmsperson---put the boat out of trim. She squatted at the stern and lifted at the bow and this affected sailing performance.

The advantages and disadvantages of the tiller are pretty much the flip side of the wheel. But she does sail better w/o the weight aft. And with a tiller extension it's much easier to see the sails and work the lines, especially short-handed or single-handed.

I'm a bit challenged with cyberspace skills, but I'll try to hook you up with a photobucket album of the wheel steering set-up. (It's already been sold, btw.) Here 'tis:

http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa12 ... 0steering/

Hope this helps. Bob

[Ron M.]

I did this when I first got my boat at the insistance of a partner, it was a mistake. The original Edson worm drive,(I have a 30) is a fine steering system that has few issues and afforded more room on the cockpit than the new pedestal/wheel.
A new unit from Edson will cost 2k plus.
The rudder will have to be dropped and the stock, rudder tube adjusted.
A lot of work here, on mine the shaft and tube were shortened. The tube reinforced and glassed in.
A packing bearing installed on the tube.
I found the cockpit floor needed rebuilding.
New engine controls installed in the pedestal.
My system works great, but in hindsight, I regret changing it.
________
FUTURA

[Carl Thunberg]

Everyone has made some excellent points. I need to disagree with one statement about the rudder position. If you mark the top of the wheel with a turks head or even electrical tape, and you know that one complete revolution puts the helm hard over, then it's pretty simple to figure out the rudder position by the position of the top of the helm. It's not hard. You get a feel for it pretty quickly.

Also, the wheel actually comes off really easily. If you're planning on entertaining at anchor, you can simply remove the wheel temporarily.

[The Patriot]

I have ... come to the conclusion I would like to switch from tiller to wheel ... I do not have enough room in the cockpit for people to sit ...

With a 28 footer (I have owned one for close to 3 decades), you might consider the following questions before changing to a wheel:

Which is cheaper? Easy enough.
Which is simpler? Also fairly clear.
Which is inherently more reliable? See preceding answer.
Which adds realizable value at resale time? Buyer-dependent.
Which is easiest, cheapest, and simplest for autopilots or vane steering? Obvious.

Now for a few personal questions:

Do you really take several friends each time you leave the dock? Cut back on your invitations and social life until you own a CD 45.
Can you get more accommodating friends? There are lonely folks everywhere who would love company.
Will a cat do instead? I likes dogs, my wife likes cats.

On a serious note my point is that the boat should first and foremost accommodate you and your family. Let me elaborate. In my travels I have encountered many folks who have a bigger boat than they really wanted so "the kids can visit us in the Bahamas," or "our daughter's friend likes to stay overnight," or [fill in the blanks]. Without exception these folks confessed over a glass of cheap scotch that they made a mistake. This often happens after a night of dragging anchor in a crowded anchorage and trying to reset that 65 pound device up front that seemed to weigh much more when covered with slimy mud and attached to an equally slimy chain.

Modifying an otherwise sensible design falls into this category when the changes under consideration are primarily for guests or other necessary inconveniences. If your guests are sailors, they can take the pain. If not, get substitutes. Still, "ya pays yure money and ya takes yure chances."

[sealark]

Has anyone ever thought (or actually done it) about putting a worm gear or rack and pinion style wheel steering set up on a 28?

Similar to what I have seen on the 30's.

It seems that set up might work on a 28.

[Oswego John]

On an unrelated note - is the bilge area under the engine open, meaning water cannot be trapped away from the bilge pump? The reason I ask this question, with all the rain we have had in the SF bay area - my bilge filled up and the lower unit went out - thankfully I had installed a second pump between the first pump and the cabin floor which kept the cabin from flooding.
- appreciate your thoughts - waitin for spring - Warren

I believe that the area under the engine is open. Water should flow downward to the bilge.

What some people do is add food coloring to several gallons of water and pour the colored water into the area under the engine. The colored water should appear in the bilge.

As far as determining 0° rudder angle position, with a tiller this is obvious. With a wheel, as Carl mentioned, there should be some designation of 0° angle. Some people designate this with a marked "king spoke" of the wheel usually at 12:00 o'clock. A turks head knot or even tape on the rim would show this.

O J

[rtbates]

On our 25D I've found I can lift the tiller until it's at about a 45º from vertical and it clears folks sitting in the cockpit..

[Dixon Hemphill]

Wow! Lots of discussion following the initial question: Wheel vs tiller. I own a 28 and believe the designer Carl Alberg knew what he was doing when he put a tiller in the 28 and a wheel in the 30. The latter is longer and thus more room in the cockpit. Why change to a tiller in a 28? I sail both single-handed and with several people and have yet to find the cockpit so crowded that I can't steer the boat. As one 25 owner mentioned one can always lift the tiller up a bit when turning to prevent it from hitting someone in the head.

And the expense of converting from the existing tiller to a wheel is in my opinion definitely not worth it!

[mgphl52]

When I was initially shopping for a CD28, the first thing to remove a boat from my list was a wheel. I sailed KAYLA for 8 years, spring, summer, fall and winter. I have taken out as many was 9 people - yes, the cockpit was crowded, but I had no problem standing to helm for the entire sail. OK, it was a light air day, but that was fine since most of the folks had never sailed before! Each and everyone said they enjoyed it very much; a few even came back the next day for more!

A small block of teak or starboard can be inserted under the tiller to keep it raised above "knee level" and work just fine. I do miss not having a tiller on Tranquil, but since she has a worm drive helm, I have adapted fairly well. If the helm had been cable driven, I doubt we would have bought her!

-mike & Toni

[DaveCD28]

I need to disagree with one statement about the rudder position. If you mark the top of the wheel with a turks head or even electrical tape, and you know that one complete revolution puts the helm hard over, then it's pretty simple to figure out the rudder position by the position of the top of the helm. It's not hard. You get a feel for it pretty quickly.

You're trying to back out of a slip and you're fending the boat off the dock as your crew mans the helm. The boat isn't going exactly where you want and you look back to see what they're doing. The tape on the wheel is at the 3:00 position. Is it turned 1/4 to starboard, or 3/4 to port?

I'm just trying to say that you can, at a glance, tell which way the rudder is facing with a tiller.

[David van den Burgh]

You're trying to back out of a slip and you're fending the boat off the dock as your crew mans the helm. The boat isn't going exactly where you want and you look back to see what they're doing. The tape on the wheel is at the 3:00 position. Is it turned 1/4 to starboard, or 3/4 to port?

That's easy: It doesn't matter. Rudder direction doesn't have an impact on a CD in reverse. Nice trick question. Next.
(Now watch as the discussion shifts from tiller vs wheel to "How I manage to back my Cape Dory like Mario Andretti")

[DaveCD28]

lol... Okay, you're right. That is competely true. I should have thought of a different scenario, but it presents the idea.

[Sea Hunt]

Hello David:

For the admitted "dummy" in this group ("porch light's on but nobody's home"; "elevator doesn't go to the top floor"; "dumber than dirt"; "doesn't have two brain cells to rub together" etc., etc., etc. - I have heard them all and more many, many times ), can you (or anyone) explain in simple words, with simple diagrams if possible, why a rudder has "no impact on a CD in reverse"

I understand the rudder impact may be somewhat reduced from that of a rudder on a fin keel sailboat because we "enjoy" a full keel, but why would the rudder have NO IMPACT. When departing my mooring or departing our club dock, I have on occasion had to be in (or go into) reverse to maneuver. It seemed a little sluggish but with the tiller over on port or starboard (depending on intended direction, etc.) it seemed to "help" my little Tadpole.

What am I missing Again, please remember - simple, short words. Otherwise I will not understand the explanation.

P.S. I hope these post passes the grammar and spelling police editors. I'll may dun the bestus I cuda witth the wittle brainys God given to mi.