I asked my sailmaker about putting lazyjacks on my CD27 (1980) since I intend to do alot of single handed sailing. My mainsail is not "full battened". He said I might do better with a Dutchman system than with lazy jacks. I have heard of a Dutchman system but I confess I though lazy jacks and a Dutchman system were one and the same. Can anyone tell me what the difference is and which system do you think is more suited to single handed sailing a CD27 (mainly daysailing).
Thanks
Warren
CD27 "Sine Qua Non"
hull #166
Setsail728@aol.com
Lazy jacks vs. Dutchman System
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Steve I.
Re: Lazy jacks vs. Dutchman System
I'm not familiar with a dutchman system myself, but I've seen many lazy jack systems.Warren Kaplan wrote: I asked my sailmaker about putting lazyjacks on my CD27 (1980) since I intend to do alot of single handed sailing. My mainsail is not "full battened". He said I might do better with a Dutchman system than with lazy jacks. I have heard of a Dutchman system but I confess I though lazy jacks and a Dutchman system were one and the same. Can anyone tell me what the difference is and which system do you think is more suited to single handed sailing a CD27 (mainly daysailing).
Thanks
Warren
CD27 "Sine Qua Non"
hull #166
I also have a CD27 (Hull #23). I have a lazy jack system made by Mack Sail's in Stuart Fl. It is all soft rope with harken components,( no wire to chaff sails ). I'm very happy with mine. I'm also curious to here about "dutchman system". Good luck!!!
chiping@tcol.net
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Bob Luby
Re: Lazy jacks vs. Dutchman -- Defined.
Here's the difference between Lazy Jacks and a Dutchman setup.
Lazy Jacks *contain* the sail as it folds when it is lowered. They consist of 2 networks of lines running from the midpoint of the mast to EACH side of the boom. The idea is that when the sail folds it will be held by the network on each side. No modification need be made to the sail itself. I think Harken may make lazy jack add-on kits, or you can make your own.
The Dutchman system involves modifications to the sail itself, so that guidelines can be strung *through* the sail to guide it as it folds. These guidelines run from the topping lift straight down to special attachment points on one side of the foot. The result is that the sail flakes itself, and it does this particularly well when it's full-battened. As the sail is repeatedly folded, creases form, and it becomes "trained". This also controls the sail, so that there is less flogging and commotion when reefing or furling - valuable if you're a single-hander.
One thing to consider is that a Dutchman installation may require a new or modified sail cover to accomodate the control lines. If you *must* keep your sail cover, you attach blocks to the end of your current topping lift and the end of the boom, run a continuous line through them ( like a clothesline ) and attach brackets to hold the upper end of the control lines to the continuous line, which is now your new topping lift. When you want to put on your old sail cover, you run the brackets ( and the upper ends of the control lines ) down
towards the end of the boom using the " clothesline". This slackens the control lines, thereby letting you put your sailcover over them.
OK?
Rluby@aol.com
Lazy Jacks *contain* the sail as it folds when it is lowered. They consist of 2 networks of lines running from the midpoint of the mast to EACH side of the boom. The idea is that when the sail folds it will be held by the network on each side. No modification need be made to the sail itself. I think Harken may make lazy jack add-on kits, or you can make your own.
The Dutchman system involves modifications to the sail itself, so that guidelines can be strung *through* the sail to guide it as it folds. These guidelines run from the topping lift straight down to special attachment points on one side of the foot. The result is that the sail flakes itself, and it does this particularly well when it's full-battened. As the sail is repeatedly folded, creases form, and it becomes "trained". This also controls the sail, so that there is less flogging and commotion when reefing or furling - valuable if you're a single-hander.
One thing to consider is that a Dutchman installation may require a new or modified sail cover to accomodate the control lines. If you *must* keep your sail cover, you attach blocks to the end of your current topping lift and the end of the boom, run a continuous line through them ( like a clothesline ) and attach brackets to hold the upper end of the control lines to the continuous line, which is now your new topping lift. When you want to put on your old sail cover, you run the brackets ( and the upper ends of the control lines ) down
towards the end of the boom using the " clothesline". This slackens the control lines, thereby letting you put your sailcover over them.
OK?
Rluby@aol.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Lazy jacks vs. Dutchman System
The Dutchman system would work ok with fully battened mains, but I can see it hanging up if not fully battened.
The lazy Jack system is my choice, and don't waste money on the Harken system..you can assemble a similar system for far less $$'s. Just look at a picture of a boat with the Lazy Jacks and copy the layout.
In my opinion, the single most important item with Lazy Jacks would be the soft rope. Choose carefully here. The rope must be far softer than the sail material or there will be abrasion. Yale Cordage has a fuzzy surface rope product that they advertise, and that would work quite well I suspect.
We have had the same Lazy Jack system for 10 years, and it still works great, and is essentially the same parts (nice to see something home made last like this!).
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
The lazy Jack system is my choice, and don't waste money on the Harken system..you can assemble a similar system for far less $$'s. Just look at a picture of a boat with the Lazy Jacks and copy the layout.
In my opinion, the single most important item with Lazy Jacks would be the soft rope. Choose carefully here. The rope must be far softer than the sail material or there will be abrasion. Yale Cordage has a fuzzy surface rope product that they advertise, and that would work quite well I suspect.
We have had the same Lazy Jack system for 10 years, and it still works great, and is essentially the same parts (nice to see something home made last like this!).
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Warren Kaplan wrote: I asked my sailmaker about putting lazyjacks on my CD27 (1980) since I intend to do alot of single handed sailing. My mainsail is not "full battened". He said I might do better with a Dutchman system than with lazy jacks. I have heard of a Dutchman system but I confess I though lazy jacks and a Dutchman system were one and the same. Can anyone tell me what the difference is and which system do you think is more suited to single handed sailing a CD27 (mainly daysailing).
Thanks
Warren
CD27 "Sine Qua Non"
hull #166
demers@sgi.com
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Matt Cawthorne
RE: Dutchman
Larry,
The Dutchman works just fine on a sail with traditional short battens. My biggest complaint with the dutchman system has to do with longevity. By most peoples standards my sails are over the hill (18 years old). For about the last 5 years a couple of the protective grommets have fallen out of the sail each year. They may not have been installed correctly or maybe they just don't last forever. At any rate, some years I can talk the company owner out of a few freebies at the boat show. Other years one needs to spend $10.00 for each protective disk. There is also some chafe where the lines rub on the stiching. Friends who have the system on newer sails have not noticed either problem.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
The Dutchman works just fine on a sail with traditional short battens. My biggest complaint with the dutchman system has to do with longevity. By most peoples standards my sails are over the hill (18 years old). For about the last 5 years a couple of the protective grommets have fallen out of the sail each year. They may not have been installed correctly or maybe they just don't last forever. At any rate, some years I can talk the company owner out of a few freebies at the boat show. Other years one needs to spend $10.00 for each protective disk. There is also some chafe where the lines rub on the stiching. Friends who have the system on newer sails have not noticed either problem.
Matt
Larry DeMers wrote: The Dutchman system would work ok with fully battened mains, but I can see it hanging up if not fully battened.
The lazy Jack system is my choice, and don't waste money on the Harken system..you can assemble a similar system for far less $$'s. Just look at a picture of a boat with the Lazy Jacks and copy the layout.
In my opinion, the single most important item with Lazy Jacks would be the soft rope. Choose carefully here. The rope must be far softer than the sail material or there will be abrasion. Yale Cordage has a fuzzy surface rope product that they advertise, and that would work quite well I suspect.
We have had the same Lazy Jack system for 10 years, and it still works great, and is essentially the same parts (nice to see something home made last like this!).
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Warren Kaplan wrote: I asked my sailmaker about putting lazyjacks on my CD27 (1980) since I intend to do alot of single handed sailing. My mainsail is not "full battened". He said I might do better with a Dutchman system than with lazy jacks. I have heard of a Dutchman system but I confess I though lazy jacks and a Dutchman system were one and the same. Can anyone tell me what the difference is and which system do you think is more suited to single handed sailing a CD27 (mainly daysailing).
Thanks
Warren
CD27 "Sine Qua Non"
hull #166
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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Matt Cawthorne
Re: training and covers
Bob,
Not all sails "train" as the manufacturer would like you to believe. My sails are of an unfilled material and do not seem to train. The system still works fine. In fact I suspect that you do not want creases in the sail. Bending a sharp crease in the sail each time could be bad for the material strength. The guy at the boatshow has a sail that would appear to have creases ironed into it. On my boat you still have to guide the sail down, but it is easier than no system. It really only works well when you have the boat pointed directly into the wind, but that is where it should be pointed when dropping the sail.
As for the sail cover you can cut a slot up the side of the cover and install a plastic zipper. Over that you can put a flap attached with velcro. At the top a leather reinforcing grommet helps. As you say, it is a modification, but not a very big one.
Matt
Mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
Not all sails "train" as the manufacturer would like you to believe. My sails are of an unfilled material and do not seem to train. The system still works fine. In fact I suspect that you do not want creases in the sail. Bending a sharp crease in the sail each time could be bad for the material strength. The guy at the boatshow has a sail that would appear to have creases ironed into it. On my boat you still have to guide the sail down, but it is easier than no system. It really only works well when you have the boat pointed directly into the wind, but that is where it should be pointed when dropping the sail.
As for the sail cover you can cut a slot up the side of the cover and install a plastic zipper. Over that you can put a flap attached with velcro. At the top a leather reinforcing grommet helps. As you say, it is a modification, but not a very big one.
Matt
Bob Luby wrote: Here's the difference between Lazy Jacks and a Dutchman setup.
Lazy Jacks *contain* the sail as it folds when it is lowered. They consist of 2 networks of lines running from the midpoint of the mast to EACH side of the boom. The idea is that when the sail folds it will be held by the network on each side. No modification need be made to the sail itself. I think Harken may make lazy jack add-on kits, or you can make your own.
The Dutchman system involves modifications to the sail itself, so that guidelines can be strung *through* the sail to guide it as it folds. These guidelines run from the topping lift straight down to special attachment points on one side of the foot. The result is that the sail flakes itself, and it does this particularly well when it's full-battened. As the sail is repeatedly folded, creases form, and it becomes "trained". This also controls the sail, so that there is less flogging and commotion when reefing or furling - valuable if you're a single-hander.
One thing to consider is that a Dutchman installation may require a new or modified sail cover to accomodate the control lines. If you *must* keep your sail cover, you attach blocks to the end of your current topping lift and the end of the boom, run a continuous line through them ( like a clothesline ) and attach brackets to hold the upper end of the control lines to the continuous line, which is now your new topping lift. When you want to put on your old sail cover, you run the brackets ( and the upper ends of the control lines ) down
towards the end of the boom using the " clothesline". This slackens the control lines, thereby letting you put your sailcover over them.
OK?
Mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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Larry DeMers
Re: RE: Dutchman
Hi Matt,
Well that's good news then. I can see a twisting force in the sailcloth, as it tries to follow the flaking line down to the boom. Could it be this motion that is flexing the kringles in the sail,and causing them to fall out occasionally?
How does that system work in higher winds, or when heading down wind and lowering sail? Even with the lazy jacks, there is some winding around the lazy jacks as you lower the sail. I wonder if the Dutchman system would be better at this?
Lastly, do you know the genesis of the name 'Dutchman' as used in this system?
Thanks,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
Well that's good news then. I can see a twisting force in the sailcloth, as it tries to follow the flaking line down to the boom. Could it be this motion that is flexing the kringles in the sail,and causing them to fall out occasionally?
How does that system work in higher winds, or when heading down wind and lowering sail? Even with the lazy jacks, there is some winding around the lazy jacks as you lower the sail. I wonder if the Dutchman system would be better at this?
Lastly, do you know the genesis of the name 'Dutchman' as used in this system?
Thanks,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Matt Cawthorne wrote: Larry,
The Dutchman works just fine on a sail with traditional short battens. My biggest complaint with the dutchman system has to do with longevity. By most peoples standards my sails are over the hill (18 years old). For about the last 5 years a couple of the protective grommets have fallen out of the sail each year. They may not have been installed correctly or maybe they just don't last forever. At any rate, some years I can talk the company owner out of a few freebies at the boat show. Other years one needs to spend $10.00 for each protective disk. There is also some chafe where the lines rub on the stiching. Friends who have the system on newer sails have not noticed either problem.
Matt
Larry DeMers wrote: The Dutchman system would work ok with fully battened mains, but I can see it hanging up if not fully battened.
The lazy Jack system is my choice, and don't waste money on the Harken system..you can assemble a similar system for far less $$'s. Just look at a picture of a boat with the Lazy Jacks and copy the layout.
In my opinion, the single most important item with Lazy Jacks would be the soft rope. Choose carefully here. The rope must be far softer than the sail material or there will be abrasion. Yale Cordage has a fuzzy surface rope product that they advertise, and that would work quite well I suspect.
We have had the same Lazy Jack system for 10 years, and it still works great, and is essentially the same parts (nice to see something home made last like this!).
Cheers!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Larry DeMers wrote:Warren Kaplan wrote: I asked my sailmaker about putting lazyjacks on my CD27 (1980) since I intend to do alot of single handed sailing. My mainsail is not "full battened". He said I might do better with a Dutchman system than with lazy jacks. I have heard of a Dutchman system but I confess I though lazy jacks and a Dutchman system were one and the same. Can anyone tell me what the difference is and which system do you think is more suited to single handed sailing a CD27 (mainly daysailing).
Thanks
Warren
CD27 "Sine Qua Non"
hull #166
demers@sgi.com
-
Bob Luby
Re: training and covers
Matt:
I have a full-batten main, of sailcloth filled with some sort of resin, and it is beginning to get trained. Of course the sail at the boat shows is much more "experienced"!
You're right that an existing sail cover can be modified. Sorry if my post didn't make that clear.
I find the control lines help contain the sail even if the bow is pointed away from the wind.
Rluby@aol.com
I have a full-batten main, of sailcloth filled with some sort of resin, and it is beginning to get trained. Of course the sail at the boat shows is much more "experienced"!
You're right that an existing sail cover can be modified. Sorry if my post didn't make that clear.
I find the control lines help contain the sail even if the bow is pointed away from the wind.
Rluby@aol.com
-
Matt Cawthorne
Re: RE: Dutchman
The disk is glued on and has 6 little spikes that poke through the
sail. Aparently the glue does not hold up forever and eventually the
little spikes break off. It could be that the sail was not new when the
system was installed and the sail was not prepared properly for the
adhesive (pressure sensitive cyano-acrylate I believe). It is even
possible that the unfilled cloth that my sails are made of does not
provide enough surface area for the bond.
The dutchman system works best pointed into the wind. It does not
matter how much wind as long as you are pointed into it. The Dutchman
helps when going down wind, but the little control lines are a little
too flexible to contian things completely when there is a cross wind or
when going down wind with a strong breeze. I find that if one points
into the wind you can get the sail flaked down and a couple of ties on
it in a minute or two. Going down wind or cross wind it can take a
whole lot longer. I do occasionally try and milk an extra 10 minutes of
sailing up swan creek and drop the sail going down wind, but it is less
than pretty. If lazy jacks work going down wind then that is an extra
plus for them.
The last name of the owner of the Dutchman company is Van Breems. I
suspect that has something to do with the name.
Matt
Mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
sail. Aparently the glue does not hold up forever and eventually the
little spikes break off. It could be that the sail was not new when the
system was installed and the sail was not prepared properly for the
adhesive (pressure sensitive cyano-acrylate I believe). It is even
possible that the unfilled cloth that my sails are made of does not
provide enough surface area for the bond.
The dutchman system works best pointed into the wind. It does not
matter how much wind as long as you are pointed into it. The Dutchman
helps when going down wind, but the little control lines are a little
too flexible to contian things completely when there is a cross wind or
when going down wind with a strong breeze. I find that if one points
into the wind you can get the sail flaked down and a couple of ties on
it in a minute or two. Going down wind or cross wind it can take a
whole lot longer. I do occasionally try and milk an extra 10 minutes of
sailing up swan creek and drop the sail going down wind, but it is less
than pretty. If lazy jacks work going down wind then that is an extra
plus for them.
The last name of the owner of the Dutchman company is Van Breems. I
suspect that has something to do with the name.
Matt
Mcawthor@bellatlantic.net