New Owner with Rudder Questions

[Annie Ward]

Hello, all!

We are proud new owners of a 1973 Cape Dory 25, hull #42. By way of introduction, we are both employed in the maritime industry here in beautiful Charleston, South Carolina. We are previous owners of a 1977 Islander Freeport 41 which we refitted and was our only home from 2003 to 2007, mostly in the Keys. We sold her for medical reasons (and moved back home to Charleston) and she now cruises the world without us.

CD25 Hull #42 had been left on a mooring during a hurricane a few years ago and was beached and has been sitting on this trailer ever since with no repair or even cleanup. The silver lining there is that at least the damage hasn't been covered up by paint. We can see exactly what we're getting. There is some damage to the fiberglass, and fore and aft stay chainplates (or at least the backing plates), much of the teak is missing and what is left will likely have to be replaced, the rudder tube is damaged and rudder shaft is missing a key, and there is damage from neglect, but nothing we can't fix ourselves. Thankfully, there is no evidence of keel separation. The previous owners had glassed in the outboard engine well and attached an ugly motor mount to her transom. We plan to re-create the well and get rid of that motor mount asap.

We know this will take lots of time and probably more money than we'll ever get out of her. We don't care. We wanted a project, we wanted a boat just like this with traditional lines and solidly built, and we are willing to wait as long as it takes to get her right. We aren't rich so the budget will also determine her splash date.

First order of business is to scrub every inch, inside and out. We pumped out the bilge yesterday and found life forms in there that are probably prehistoric, and removed bags of trash. Ugh.

Although we really should concentrate on the insides first, my husband is preoccupied with repairing the rudder tube. Apparently the rudder was yanked out in the storm and there is a fissure aft of the rudder tube (as you can imagine would happen if you violently pulled the rudder out toward the back instead of correctly) and we think a few inches of the tube is missing (but not all of it). I have to admit we have never fooled with a rudder before so we will need some help. There is a keyway at the top of the rudder shaft, so it apparently was not broken off. There is a bearing at the bottom that looks to fit in the heel cup but that seems to me to be incomplete. I have searched the past threads on this site but haven't found the answers I need, so ...

Question #1: Is there anything else that should hold the bottom of the rudder shaft in the cup? Does anyone have an exploded drawing of the rudder assembly for the 1973? (The 1978 owner's manual on this site has one but it's not detailed enough for what we need).

Question #2: the key that fits on top of the shaft and into the tiller (which we have) is missing. How do we go about getting another? And how do all these things secure together?

Question #3: Is the rudder tube (bronze) supposed to extend all the way to the bottom of the opening? I have a hard time imagining that it was ripped off in half but it appears that's what happened. Should we try to take out the rest of it and replace the whole thing (a job we aren't looking forward to)? Should we simply repair the fiberglass fissure and allow the rudder to work in a partial bronze tube and partial fiberglass tube? (Does that make sense?)

Thanks, everyone. More questions to come (of course, after I have searched the past threads on this site).

Annie and Capt. Buddy

[tartansailor]

(1) The rudder comes out from the bottom, by grinding carefully until
you locate the 2 knock out pins.

(2)Spartan Marine Hardware, Georgetown, ME

(3)Yes. Re-do completely to avoid leaks.

I did a complete on mine:

[img]http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/t ... 0_0297.jpg[/img]

BTW, The rudder is solid SS from top to bottom, with a fiberglass wrap.

[Annie Ward]

Thank you.

[sfreihofer]

Question #1: Is there anything else that should hold the bottom of the rudder shaft in the cup?

On my boat, no. The stainless steel shaft sits in the cup of the boot.

Does anyone have an exploded drawing of the rudder assembly for the 1973? (The 1978 owner's manual on this site has one but it's not detailed enough for what we need).

I have not yet re-installed the gudgeon, boot, shoe, or whatever you want to call it. I can take photos or measurements if that would help. Since I am also restoring a CD 25, you might find the answers you need on my website:
http://www.reefroof.com/resthull.htm.

Question #2: the key that fits on top of the shaft and into the tiller (which we have) is missing. How do we go about getting another? And how do all these things secure together?

Is this what you are missing? The CD 25 uses a T700SC Tiller Cap from Spartan Marine: http://www.spartanmarine.com/catalog.html. You should be able to find a key at a good hardware or marine store.

Question #3: Is the rudder tube (bronze) supposed to extend all the way to the bottom of the opening?

On my boat, it does extend all the way to the bottom... but the rudder tube on my boat is fiberglass, not bronze. Go figure???

I have a hard time imagining that it was ripped off in half but it appears that's what happened. Should we try to take out the rest of it and replace the whole thing (a job we aren't looking forward to)? Should we simply repair the fiberglass fissure and allow the rudder to work in a partial bronze tube and partial fiberglass tube? (Does that make sense?)

If the tube is not intact, I would advise replacing the entire length. Otherwise, the rudder shaft has less than adequate support and the shaft will flex or bend.

If your tube is fiberglass (as mine is) perhaps you could drill it out??? If it is indeed bronze, perhaps you could heat it internally enough to soften the resin it is imbedded in, and drive it out. Neither of those sound ideal. Another option is grinding/cutting it out. The problem in that case is access, because it is buried under the cockpit floor, and getting to it would be...

Let's just say I'm glad I don't have that problem....

Stan Freihofer
1981 CD 25 #794
Ft. Lauderdale
www.ReefRoof.com

[Annie Ward]

Thank you, Stan. Your site has been bookmarked and has opened up all kinds of discussion in our house. Very, very helpful and inspiring. And a little daunting ... our woodworking skills are basic, at best, and we can see that we will need to step up our knowledge or find someone who doesn't charge a fortune. We need to do what you did and strip the entire boat of wood and many of those pieces, including the bulkheads, will need replacing. Refinishing I can do -- shaping and routing is a whole other story.

Thank you, too, for the info on the rudder gudgeon/boot/shoe/whatever. I will have to post a picture of ours because it doesn't look like anything else I've ever seen. I'm sure there's something missing but I don't know what it is. As for the key for the top of the rudder shaft, we do have a line on getting ahold of one locally, as well as a machine shop to straighten the slight bend we found in our rudder shaft. Reglassing it is no problem, we do have experience there.

Looking forward to the "after" pics on your website...

[Jim Walsh]

http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... nched out?

[Oswego John]

Try this,

http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... ht=gudgeon

Good luck,
O J
PS: It's hard to concentrate on this 'cause I'm watching the Carolina/Vikings game tonight. It can go either way. Don't want to miss anything.

[Annie Ward]

I can see I'll have to post pics. Ours doesn't look anything like the one on the link. (Thanks guys for the link to the previous thread, VERY helpful!) I'm sure we are missing something but I don't know what (base pin? what's that?)

What we have is not completely glassed in -- it looks like a bronze "cup" at the base of the keel with a "cut-out" shaped like a square. The cut-out looks like it's supposed to be there -- too precise to have been made by the shaft being torn out, I think -- and the bushing/bearing at the base of the rudder shaft fits in it but it doesn't look right or complete.

Sorry. As I've said before, despite our experience we have never had to deal with a rudder before (it had already been done on our liveaboard before we took over the remainder of the refit).

Pics to come soon ...

So who won the game? (We were out with the grandchild and didn't see it)

[Oswego John]

Annie,

The game was even-steven for the first three quarters. Then the Panthers went berserk and scored three times in minutes in the fourth quarter to win 26 to 7.

I'd like to see pix of your rudder system.

O J

[Annie Ward]

Okay, so I went to take these pictures today and finally got on the ground and took a good look at the rudder shoe. It is NOT a "cut out" as I thought -- it's a "wear out!" In other words, the rudder literally wore through the wall of the shoe. (Stan, similar to your situation -- only worse.) Check it out--

[img]<a%20href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/13939589@N ... 1"%20/></a>[/img]

[img]<a%20href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/13939589@N ... 2"%20/></a>[/img]

According to the PO, this boat was left at a mooring for years -- obviously without the rudder being tied off so that it moved constantly and wore through the shoe. When the hurricane hit, it didn't take much to rip out the whole rudder. Here is a pic of the lower rudder tube damage:

[img]<a%20href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/13939589@N ... e"%20/></a>[/img]

If anyone has any brilliant ideas about how to fix this, please let me know! We WILL fix it -- we aren't giving up on this poor old girl -- but in this case, gravity will not be a friend. In probing the tube it is apparent that the bronze tube was torn off (we can feel sharp burrs in there). We are toying with the idea of grinding the bottom of what's left of the bronze tube smooth and replacing the lower tube with a fiberglass one -- so it will be a half-and-half thing and somehow pack glass or ? around it. I don't know if there's a reason not to do that or not. Even if we can get the old bronze tube out, which I'm not banking on, where do we find a new one?

It's obvious to us that this poor boat has never been well maintained, much less had a refit. She deserves one, that's for sure, so we'll be taking a cue from Stan and starting from scratch.

Ideas, thoughts, criticism, and sympathy is welcome ...

[Matt Cawthorne]

But this might be helpful.

http://www.cawthorne.org/Rudder.html

When I tried to order a shoe from Spartan, they did not act interested in selling me one. This was because they only had one left and wanted to hold it for a potential RH-36 production boat. They did not want to order a bunch of castings just to sell me one. That may have been a good business decision for them, but I had to find another solution. My solution was to have a larger, tapered pin made. This will probably not work for you. Welding a back end on your shoe may work. Spartan may have one for your boat, I would try them first.

On the 36 there is also a sleeve with ears on it that gets built into the bottom of the rudder. Be attentive to this issue since that one may be worn through as well.


You could always cast a new shoe. It helps to have artist friends who do sculpture......

Matt

[Annie Ward]

Thanks, Matt. Everything, at this point, is helpful. Your page shows that replacing and reglassing the thing is no small task and we will be referring to it often. We are up for the job, though.

It also helps that my husband is a tugboat captain and works for a company with an extensive workshop crewed by personnel/friends who "know people" and who said that getting a new rudder shoe cast will not be a problem. I guess they do stuff like that all the time for the tugs (who knew?). Even so, we are also going to try to buy a new one from Spartan or Bristol or someone who might carry such a thing. Said friend in workshop is also insisting that he press the bend out of the rudder shaft for us so that we don't "mess it up." Only he didn't say "mess." Anyway ... it's good to have friends who know stuff.

I await any further comments and/or suggestions. We'll take all we can get...

[pete faga]

Annie. I had my gudgeon replaced 2 years ago.We took the broken one off and had someone fabricate a ss one for $100.If you look at the archives you will see where the three pins are located. I was not present when he grinded the fiberglass.I have hull 66 so the setup should be the same. If you want i will ship you the old bronze one so you can have a replica. The new one was bigger but obviosly had the exact diameter for the rudder shaft. The new gudgeon had to have new holes drilled before being pinned and then just glassed the old holes. I believe he put a teflon peice in the cup so there wasn't ss on ss. Merry Xmas pete

[Annie Ward]

Thanks, Pete! What happened to your original one? The same thing?

Interesting that you mention you had yours made out of SS. We were debating the same thing. I'd appreciate your take on the pros and cons of that. How do you like the SS so far?

We were also thinking, regardless of what metal we used, of putting a nylon (or teflon, as you did) bushing in it so it would last longer. Since I had not heard of that being done before, I wasn't sure.

We were also debating on whether to buy one meant for a bigger CD so it would be beefier and stronger (and also because that's all that Spartan has available right now). The larger hole would allow for the nylon/teflon but I question whether it would fit correctly on the keel.

I'd love to see pics of what you did. I'll search the board for the thread. I'll let you know if we need to see your old one "in person" -- that might be very helpful. Thanks so much for the offer! At this point, we are going to take the old one off of ours next week and see what we have then. I'll let you know.

Thanks again and a very Merry Christmas to you, too!

[pete faga]

Hi annie.The pictures that Matt showed you what it looks like after you find the location of the pins and gudgeon is removed is great!On a 25 it's alot smaller of course but you get the idea of whats underneath the glass.My problem probably happened because I didn't tie down the tiller tight enough when i was at my 2nd mooring which gets rough from the north and eastwind.I think i took some pictures on my old 35mm. If i find them i'll send you them.I too went to Sparten but gudgeons aren't something they have on the shelves.A bigger cd probably has more than a 1 inch shaft i'm sure the board can comment on that measurement.My new gudgeon works great no vibration after approx 100 sails.I spend most of Feb. down the keys.Where you moored in boot harbor? good luck pete