More Complaints About 10% Ethanol gas

[Sea Hunt]

Well, an interesting day.

Several days ago I had cleaned S/V Tapdole's bottom smooth as a baby's bottom. I also removed the Suzuki O/B, took it home and gave it a good clean, fresh water wash down, oil, lube, etc. All ran smoothly.

Today I went sailing - clean bottom, freshly prepped O/B and beautiful weather although a little hot - 89 degrees which was/is a 100 year old record breaker (previous 87) for 10 December. Blue skies, no clouds; gentle winds 7-8 kts steady ESE.

Started the O/B and motored out of the mooring field and channel. Once in Biscayne Bay, raised main and jib and cut off the O/B, tilting it up out of the water. Another Typhoon Weekender came out sailing after a while and we played for some time.

After about 2 1/2 hours, decided it was time to head back in. Started the O/B. No problems. Lowered RPMs to idle while I lowered the jib and then the main. Just then the O/B quit. I attempted to restart. No success. With sails down I was starting to drift toward shore. I quickly deployed my anchor and began to assess the O/B issue.

It would only start with high RPM locked in. As soon as I lowered RPMs to idle it would quit within 15-20 seconds. I finally decided it had to be the lower speed/RPM jet that was clogged. I was able to twist the throttle between high RPM and lower RPM for a while and finally was able to get the O/B to idle at low RPM.

In bringing up the anchor, I managed to bring aboard about 5 lbs. of Biscayne Bay gray muck all over the forward deck, Genoa, etc. which gradually worked its way back to the stern along each deck side.

The O/B ran fine back to the mooring and while I was on the mooring cleaning things up a little.

I have come to conclusion that it is once again this new 10% Ethanol gas ($%^&#@!!!) that is the culprit. It "cleans" everything it touches and delivers it to the injection jets. The lower speed/RPM jet is so small an opening/aperture that the tiniest micron particle clogs it. By running high rpm then low rpm and back and forth I am guessing I dislodged the micron particle. If not for this I would have had to take the O/B home, remove the jet and blow high pressure air to clear it.

I will admit I am absolutely guessing at all of the above. I am NOT an O/B mechanic and know very little about such. However, this O/B worked very well before I had to switch to 10% Ethanol. This is now the second time this has happened. 6-8 months ago it was the high speed/rpm jet and I had to bring it to a O/B dealer to get the jet flushed out and readjusted correctly.

I would welcome any thoughts on things I could have/should have done differently or better to improve my situation.

I wish I had the skill to sail back to my mooring. Unfortunately, I do not yet have those skills and the mooring balls (and sailboats) are so close to eachother that one misstep and I would damage another's sailboat (not to mention the damage to my beloved S/V Tadpole).

[Carl Thunberg]

Robert,

Once again you sell yourself short. You clearly do know quite a bit about outboards, but my real comment is about sailing onto your mooring. You actually do have the skills to sail onto your mooring. It's confidence that's lacking. Just de-power the sails and go slow with just enough speed to maintain steerage and no more. Honest, you can do this. You may want to bring along a friend when you try this the first time so they can fend off if necessary, but I'll bet it won't be.

Most of the outstanding acts of seamanship that I've witnessed over the years have involved very competent sailors who are able to maneuver their craft in crowded harbors.

[Steve Laume]

I probably know less about outboards than you do.

I do question your logic though. You feel the new fuel mixture is cleaning everything and then dislodging it to become clogged in the idle jet. That would make perfect sense if it happened once.

If indeed the fuel is so good at dislodging crude, the crude should all be gone by now.

I have heard that the fuel jets in a small 4 stroke outboard are tiny. This makes them very susceptible to problems with fuel contaminates. Another problem is that you are dumping a fuel jug directly into a gravity feed tank. At least with an axillary tank some of the crude may stay on the bottom.

Before I made it all the fault of the fuel blend I would consider my little outboard's fuel tank and the jug that fills it. Could you be introducing tiny particles of contamination into your fuel system?

I once watched a boater put a fine paint strainer into a funnel and then fill his diesel tank from a dockside pump that had it's own hose filter. It would then go through the boat's filtering system before it was consumed by the engine. At the time I had serious doubts as to weather this was doing any good but did not question. The paint filter was probably too coarse to catch anything other than the largest debris.

Last summer we used a 2HP Honda on our dink that had been sitting for a few years. It did a great job except for the time after I ran it out of gas. It would not start for love nor money. Resigning myself to carry around it's dead weight and row long distances, I figured one last try was worth it. I picked up a can of carb and choke cleaner, douched the carb out good and it ran fine after that. Needless to say the carb cleaner is now part of the ships stores.

Motors, can't live with em, can't shoot em, Steve.

[Klem]

Do you have a good inline fuel filter? This may save a lot of headaches for you.

The only problems that I have had with E10 have been related to it absorbing a lot of water. However, it does not sound like that was your problem in this case.

[Kilgore]

If the corn lobby has its way we'll be stuck with E15
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/busin ... e15&st=cse
Do you have access to marine gas?

[darmoose]

Robert,

My guess is you are exactly correct. I have had several bad experiences with outboards I use on my dinghy with ethanol gas and have stopped using it on anything.

It is a simple matter to find a marina that sells non ethanol gas and use only that. I suggest you go that route for very little extra expense.

Good luck

Darrell

[Jim Davis]

Klem is on what to me is the right track.

I have an inline filter on my outboard and have to clear the water out of it every month, or so. Last season some crud managed to get past the filter and clog the jets. The crud possibly came from the hose or squeeze bulb. Several cleanings with carb cleaner helped, but it is still a bit ragged until it warms up. As near as I and a mechanic can figure some crud got past the filter and stuck in the carb. I'm hoping that several more hours of use, along with carb cleaner will solve the problem. Rowing a RIB with a dead out board is a PITA. This is on a three year old 9.9 four stroke.

[sharkbait]

The alcohol in the E10 gasoline will dissolve all of the lacquer and other deposits in the fuel tanks. It will also dissolve much of the older rubber components which were around before the days of E10.
The epoxy companies are still trying to design new resins to offset the problems created by E10.

Go to almost any airport and you can buy AvGas. (no alcohol)

[Sea Hunt]

An interesting update.

I assumed that once gas stations switched to 10% ethanol gas that you could not buy regular gas without ethanol.

Darrell's post caused me to rethink this. Turns out, as is usually the case with me I was wrong again.

I checked with sailors at the club and called around to a few marinas. There are still a few pumps (mostly at marinas) that sell what they say is regular gas without ethanol. I am not sure if the gas really does not have ethanol or if they are just telling people it does not have ethanol. I am, buy nature and training, a suspicious individual. When I asked a few employees how they were able to sell gas without ethanol since the feds required gas with ethanol, they did not seem to have any real good answers.

One of these marina stations is run by Miami Dade County so I am guessing it is probably the most honest. I see marine patrol boats filling up there all the time. Being the dummy that I am I NEVER once bothered to look to see if the pumps said ethanol added or not. This marina is in the process of replacing all of its in ground tanks but the dockmaster swears they will continue to have and sell regular gas without ethanol.

Anyways, I will try it and see if it makes a difference.

Spent some time on S/V Tadpole today. The O/B appears to be working well again at both low and high RPMs and none the worse for its second bout with crud clogging the jets.

P.S. One thing I have noticed about 10% ethanol gas which is consistent with the literature on the subject. My beloved 1995 Chevy truck has had reduced gas mileage ever since I was forced to pump in ethanol gas. It has gone down about 2-3 mpg per full tank. The literature says ethanol, although a high octane fuel additive, actually reduces power and fuel efficiency.

Thank you very much EPA

[sharkbait]

The BTU's per gallon of alcohol is less than that of gasoline. Ergo you will get less miles per gallon.

[Kilgore]

I experienced a 2-3mpg hit from E10 as well.

E85 will incur a 30% hit. It has a higher octane level than gas, so a very high CR/boost engine on E85 could equalize for that, but it would grenade on regular gas.

Ethanol as produced in the US is a massive corn-belt boondoggle. Politics as usual.

[sharkbait]

Gasoline has approximately 116,000 BTU's per gallon.
Ethanol has approximately 75,000 BTU's per gallon.
So it wouldn't be to hard to calculate the loss when you start mixing the two. There are other problems with using ethanol. Have those of you living in the northern states noticed it is harder to start the car in the winter. An engine running on 100% alcohol will not start if the temperature drops below 20 degrees F. Block heaters would be mandatory. The MPG of alcohol fueled engines could be almost doubled if you could raise the compression ratio of the engine from 8 to 1 to 16 to 1. But, you cannot operate an alcohol fueled engine above 14 to 1 because of pre-detonation.

[seajunkie]

A local outboard mechanic gave me a tip last year when I was complaining about the problems that I had with my motor idling rough and stalling. He told me that these newer motors are designed to run super lean for emission control. He showed me where on my carburetor there is a metal cap over a mixture adjustment screw. He told me to drill off the cap and richen up the mixture.

I did this, and since then I have had no problems idling.

[Lang]

Sea hunt,
I use a brand new 5HP 4 stroke Suzuki on Eleanor. I had that same problem you described, even here in Asia. I do not think that our fuel here contain Ethanol.

Last year, a mechanically inclined boater help me service O/B. He removed every component in the fuel.. (almost) .. and cleaned it really well. He found that it was the sticky dried fuel deposits that plugged up the tiny opening of a pin.. sorry, I am not good at O/B mechanics.. I can't tell you which pin, but it was definately a small pin... Anyway, he feels that I will probably have to do this "maintenance" regularly, especially after letting it rest for more than 6 months.

[Hud Smith]

I had trouble with a small tractor and a chainsaw- wouldn't start,etc. The small engine people told me to use 89 octane or higher if the fuel will sit for more than 60 days. The lower octane 10% ethanol gums up the works, hence the cleaning required.
I got interested and looked up the numbers on the internet- USDA and other sources. In 2008 we turned 34% of the corn crop (124 million metric tons) into ethanol. This displaced 2 and a half percent of our oil use. Unfortunately, the 10% ethanol also produced 3% fewer miles per gallon. Here's to a better 2010.