Just picked up a S-L Anchorman manual windlass for WanderBird. I'm curious if any other 25D/26/27 owners have a similar vertical windlass and where (on the foredeck) you've mounted it.
In the process I'm also planning to add a second foredeck cleat. I find it frustrating (and unseamanlike) to have two anchor rodes made fast on one cleat. It always seems like you need to adjust the one on the bottom!
Pics of foredeck installations and/or descriptions would be helpful as I plan this out... thanks!
Manual windlass question...
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Some thoughts
Hi Bill,
Our boat came with that same windlass. The picture shows it before we actually bought the boat, but it is still in the same place now.
[img]http://www.mainephoto.com/folios/Exodus-116.jpg[/img]
I was thrilled to be getting a windlass; I had had no prior experience with them. But...
...now I am on the verge of removing mine. My issues apply to this particular boat (a CD31), but they may provide food for thought.
You can see that where mine is located is odd. I did not think about that at the time of purchase. First, I believe that mine is placed in a position that is 90 degrees off from how it should be. Look at where the chain stripper is. I believe it should be turned 90 degrees clockwise. That would enable the chain to go 180 degrees around the windlass; that would make for a secure pull.
But just changing that would not improve things, because with the location right at the stem, the thing this windlass does best, IF the chain does not slip off, is dump the rode right off of the port bow!
So the first thing you need to consider is what the rode will drop into. In my case, it has been a tote I hang off the port bow, but that is another story... Does the 26D have an anchor locker with a deck lid on it like the 25D? If so, your windlass probably needs to be on that hatch. This will make the hatch pretty heavy, and having the road feed thru it will make opening and closing it problematic. If it has a chain locker like the 31 has, you have to make sure there is enough room to create a proper "fall" for the rode, so that when it leaves the windlass, gravity will pull it down and in.
I considered moving ours back, to over the locker, but first, things are already kind of busy on the foredeck, what with the staysail boom, and a storage deck-box I built. But mainly, it was lack of adequate fall that dissuaded me. Our chain locker has a partition down the center, to allow for two rodes. We have a 22 lb Bruce w/ 40 feet of chain (then nylon), and a 16 lb Fortress w/ 25 ft of chain (then nylon). If I removed the partition (easy to do) and only used one anchor, there would be room for adequate fall. But using only half of the locker means that the rode stacks right up to the hawse pipe. So even if the windlass fed right into the/a pipe, the rode would not get pulled down enough; I would still have to "help" it.
[img]http://www.mainephoto.com/folios/DeckBox1.jpg[/img]
Then there are mud issues. Half of the sea floor comes up with our chain. Holding ground here is generally fantastic, but it makes for a mud bath when we weigh anchor. We have no pressure washer for the chain; and no space or budget for one.
So imagine my current routine: I hang my tote off of the port bow from lines on the pulpit. I get in most of the nylon and feed it into the chain pipe, then I place the chain around the windlass. I crank in the chain, and it falls into the tote. The tote has some holes drilled into the bottom. I am crouched down cranking the windlass with my right hand, while my left hand "spreads" the chain in the bottom of the tote, lest it all pile up on the near side, tilt the tote, then all fall out and into the drink. Cranking it in is easier than just using my back, but it is also slower, so at a critical point when the boat breaks free, I have to work frantically to make sure all is contained and secured, while I rush back to the helm, or yell at my wife to a) keep the boat from drifting ashore, and b) explain that yes, I know you cannot steer while we have next to no way on. I then get the chain all into the tote, and the not-yet-stowed portion of the rope (which is generally clean) remains on deck. Since the windlass, as currently mounted, allows for only about 100 degrees of wrap, there is always the chance that the whole thing jumps off while I am up there having fun, making for some REAL fun. I have one bad memory and one smashed finger to my credit so far.
Once we are underway, I scoop up buckets of seawater, and rinse the chain in its tote. Then, I proceed to transfer the chain, whose "A" end is now in "Z" position at the bottom of the tote, into the chain pipe.
Then I open my deck box, get out the scrub brush, and proceed to clean the foredeck and sidedecks. When I am done, I go aft, where my wife insists I not touch anything because I am covered in mud. I go below, slime the galley sink faucet handles, complete the personal hygiene phase, then change clothes. Then I clean the galley and the cabin sole. Then I drink a lot of water.
So I have declared the windlass retired. The tote (which lives in the deck box) has been replaced by a non-holy one. My plan now is to just fill the tote halfway with seawater, then use my back and pure human grunt to get the chain into the tote, quickly. Once we are underway, I will stir up the chain to get the mud to settle in the bottom of the tote, then feed the chain into the locker.
I tried the new method, and it is just a heck of a lot easier, quicker, and safer. But requires more grunt.
If I remove the windlass, I think I can squeeze in a chain pawl, which will make things even safer.
I am not trying to rain on your parade. Just providing food for thought.
And letting you know that if you ever want to buy a spare...
Seriously, I hope that you can find an installation and a routine which works well and saves your back. I just have not found that on Loda May.
Good luck!
Dean
Our boat came with that same windlass. The picture shows it before we actually bought the boat, but it is still in the same place now.
[img]http://www.mainephoto.com/folios/Exodus-116.jpg[/img]
I was thrilled to be getting a windlass; I had had no prior experience with them. But...
...now I am on the verge of removing mine. My issues apply to this particular boat (a CD31), but they may provide food for thought.
You can see that where mine is located is odd. I did not think about that at the time of purchase. First, I believe that mine is placed in a position that is 90 degrees off from how it should be. Look at where the chain stripper is. I believe it should be turned 90 degrees clockwise. That would enable the chain to go 180 degrees around the windlass; that would make for a secure pull.
But just changing that would not improve things, because with the location right at the stem, the thing this windlass does best, IF the chain does not slip off, is dump the rode right off of the port bow!
So the first thing you need to consider is what the rode will drop into. In my case, it has been a tote I hang off the port bow, but that is another story... Does the 26D have an anchor locker with a deck lid on it like the 25D? If so, your windlass probably needs to be on that hatch. This will make the hatch pretty heavy, and having the road feed thru it will make opening and closing it problematic. If it has a chain locker like the 31 has, you have to make sure there is enough room to create a proper "fall" for the rode, so that when it leaves the windlass, gravity will pull it down and in.
I considered moving ours back, to over the locker, but first, things are already kind of busy on the foredeck, what with the staysail boom, and a storage deck-box I built. But mainly, it was lack of adequate fall that dissuaded me. Our chain locker has a partition down the center, to allow for two rodes. We have a 22 lb Bruce w/ 40 feet of chain (then nylon), and a 16 lb Fortress w/ 25 ft of chain (then nylon). If I removed the partition (easy to do) and only used one anchor, there would be room for adequate fall. But using only half of the locker means that the rode stacks right up to the hawse pipe. So even if the windlass fed right into the/a pipe, the rode would not get pulled down enough; I would still have to "help" it.
[img]http://www.mainephoto.com/folios/DeckBox1.jpg[/img]
Then there are mud issues. Half of the sea floor comes up with our chain. Holding ground here is generally fantastic, but it makes for a mud bath when we weigh anchor. We have no pressure washer for the chain; and no space or budget for one.
So imagine my current routine: I hang my tote off of the port bow from lines on the pulpit. I get in most of the nylon and feed it into the chain pipe, then I place the chain around the windlass. I crank in the chain, and it falls into the tote. The tote has some holes drilled into the bottom. I am crouched down cranking the windlass with my right hand, while my left hand "spreads" the chain in the bottom of the tote, lest it all pile up on the near side, tilt the tote, then all fall out and into the drink. Cranking it in is easier than just using my back, but it is also slower, so at a critical point when the boat breaks free, I have to work frantically to make sure all is contained and secured, while I rush back to the helm, or yell at my wife to a) keep the boat from drifting ashore, and b) explain that yes, I know you cannot steer while we have next to no way on. I then get the chain all into the tote, and the not-yet-stowed portion of the rope (which is generally clean) remains on deck. Since the windlass, as currently mounted, allows for only about 100 degrees of wrap, there is always the chance that the whole thing jumps off while I am up there having fun, making for some REAL fun. I have one bad memory and one smashed finger to my credit so far.
Once we are underway, I scoop up buckets of seawater, and rinse the chain in its tote. Then, I proceed to transfer the chain, whose "A" end is now in "Z" position at the bottom of the tote, into the chain pipe.
Then I open my deck box, get out the scrub brush, and proceed to clean the foredeck and sidedecks. When I am done, I go aft, where my wife insists I not touch anything because I am covered in mud. I go below, slime the galley sink faucet handles, complete the personal hygiene phase, then change clothes. Then I clean the galley and the cabin sole. Then I drink a lot of water.
So I have declared the windlass retired. The tote (which lives in the deck box) has been replaced by a non-holy one. My plan now is to just fill the tote halfway with seawater, then use my back and pure human grunt to get the chain into the tote, quickly. Once we are underway, I will stir up the chain to get the mud to settle in the bottom of the tote, then feed the chain into the locker.
I tried the new method, and it is just a heck of a lot easier, quicker, and safer. But requires more grunt.
If I remove the windlass, I think I can squeeze in a chain pawl, which will make things even safer.
I am not trying to rain on your parade. Just providing food for thought.
And letting you know that if you ever want to buy a spare...
Seriously, I hope that you can find an installation and a routine which works well and saves your back. I just have not found that on Loda May.
Good luck!
Dean
Last edited by Dean Abramson on Jul 14th, '09, 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
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tartansailor
- Posts: 1525
- Joined: Aug 30th, '05, 13:55
- Location: CD25, Renaissance, Milton, DE
Good Point
Good Point.
Food for thought.
Thanks.
Dick
Food for thought.
Thanks.
Dick
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Mud
I should have mentioned why I care about the mud.
On my old 25D, I didn't. When the anchor locker got gross, I simply opened the lid and rinsed the locker all out. It is totally isolated from the rest of the boat, and has a drain hole forward. So odor is no issue.
But on the 31, there is no good way to wash out the chain locker. And even if you could, the mud would go to the bilge. The chain locker is separated from the vee berth by only a louvered door. The bottom is about even with the bunk, and so my rodes are stacked up from there to just below the deck level. The scent of fresh, then later not-so-fresh, mud can enhance your olfactory sleeping pleasure. If you like dreaming that you are a clam, don't rinse your chain.
And if you don't want to feel like a clam in bondage, use a decent latch on the door. Frankly, I don't understand why all-chain rodes (in those boats that have them) don't regularly destroy those relatively lightweight doors and tumble on to the berth.
Dean
On my old 25D, I didn't. When the anchor locker got gross, I simply opened the lid and rinsed the locker all out. It is totally isolated from the rest of the boat, and has a drain hole forward. So odor is no issue.
But on the 31, there is no good way to wash out the chain locker. And even if you could, the mud would go to the bilge. The chain locker is separated from the vee berth by only a louvered door. The bottom is about even with the bunk, and so my rodes are stacked up from there to just below the deck level. The scent of fresh, then later not-so-fresh, mud can enhance your olfactory sleeping pleasure. If you like dreaming that you are a clam, don't rinse your chain.
And if you don't want to feel like a clam in bondage, use a decent latch on the door. Frankly, I don't understand why all-chain rodes (in those boats that have them) don't regularly destroy those relatively lightweight doors and tumble on to the berth.
Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
My set up.
I also have an Anchorman which was installed by a P.O.. My unit has a rope and chain gypsy and like yours does not feed directly into the chain locker. Mine is mounted about a foot aft of the cleats. I have two hawsepipes and a removable divider in my chain locker. I also wind in about twenty feet at a time and feed it through the hawse before bringing in the next segment to keep things neat. It's a bit of a pain but works fine. I have a 25 pound CQR with twenty feet of 5/16 and 200+ feet of 1/2 nylon on the port side as a kedge, and a 33# Bruce with 100 feet of 5/16 and 150+ feet of 5/8 for my bower on the starboard. I am leaning toward replacing my unit with a horizontal manual unit so I can operate the windlass standing rather than kneeling on a cushion. I am hesitant to have the chain run directly down into the locker as I presume it would be quite difficult to keep a ton of water from working below in crappy conditions. My windlass is not in the way, all I do is move the club to one side when using it. Clearly when using the kedge it isn't necessary to use the windlass in most situations.
Thanks for the thoughts! Dean, I can see how that routine frustrated you!
I'm thinking of mounting the windlass back where my single foredeck cleat is now, and then mounting a pair of cleats forward and slightly to the side of where the chain would run fair to the windlass from the roller. This would allow me to do a full 180 degrees in the gypsy (yes, you're correct that your windlass should be rotated 90...) and then have about a foot coming back forward to the present location of the spillpipe. Hopefully it will feed down into the chain locker without too much assistance. (No, the 26D does not have a foredeck locker like the 25D). I have a nylon rode, 40'+/- of 5/16 chain and a 22 lb delta as my primary anchor.
Interesting that you've also thought of a pawl... that's the other idea I've toyed with, to make hauling the chain a bit like using a ratchet mechanism - pull a few feet up, and the pawl will keep it from sliding back between pulls. I decided to go with the windlass as I'm not lifting an all chain rode, so mostly I pull in the nylon rode and at that point it's only a little ways to go before breaking the hook out. In other words, my need was for pulling power, not endurance! But with an all chain rode I might have made the other choice.
Anyhow, thanks for raising some good points to think about!
I'm thinking of mounting the windlass back where my single foredeck cleat is now, and then mounting a pair of cleats forward and slightly to the side of where the chain would run fair to the windlass from the roller. This would allow me to do a full 180 degrees in the gypsy (yes, you're correct that your windlass should be rotated 90...) and then have about a foot coming back forward to the present location of the spillpipe. Hopefully it will feed down into the chain locker without too much assistance. (No, the 26D does not have a foredeck locker like the 25D). I have a nylon rode, 40'+/- of 5/16 chain and a 22 lb delta as my primary anchor.
Interesting that you've also thought of a pawl... that's the other idea I've toyed with, to make hauling the chain a bit like using a ratchet mechanism - pull a few feet up, and the pawl will keep it from sliding back between pulls. I decided to go with the windlass as I'm not lifting an all chain rode, so mostly I pull in the nylon rode and at that point it's only a little ways to go before breaking the hook out. In other words, my need was for pulling power, not endurance! But with an all chain rode I might have made the other choice.
Anyhow, thanks for raising some good points to think about!
Last edited by BillNH on Jul 14th, '09, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Question
Jim, is your windlass turned 90 degrees clockwise from how mine is?
Dean
Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Yes, Dean
Someone was distracted when yours was mounted. You should be able to just remove the nuts and use a drift to drive the mounting bolts up enough to turn it 90 degrees and refasten it. It's very unfortunate they chose to mount it in that spot. What on earth were they thinking? I would not have chosen a manual vertical windlass but I must admit it works like a charm and is robustly constructed. I'd like to replace it with a manual horizontal axis windlass but I'm in no particular hurry since mine is well placed, mounted, and works perfectly. My exterior teak is my next big project. I'm toying with the idea of paying some masochist to strip it and varnish it for me! Time is valuable and I'd rather be sailing (or most anything) than stripping and revarnishing.
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Back to drawing board
Bill and Jim,
Could I see photos of your installations?
I have tried just using my brute strength. Unfortunately, I am no brute, and my back is funky already. As we say down south (where I'm actually from), it like to killed me.
Rich and Melissa Abato suggested that I try a braided anchor line. This would make the line compress better after it falls into the locker; perhaps this would then create enough space that I would have enough fall that I could, if I move the windlass, wind straight into a hawse pipe.
Then, of course, I would need a wash-down pump. But that is not a huge job. Of course, I will need a way to secure the nozzle somehow so that it shoots at the chain as it comes over the bow roller, since the crew (me) will have his hands full with the windlass.
We are hauling the boat next week, and I hope to start on all of this soon.
In addition to pix of Anchorman installations, I would also be interested in hearing suggestions for good manual horizontal windlasses, and pix of their installations. There is a Lofrans one which looks good, but it has aluminum gears. (None of Lofrans' other windlasses do.)
Also, any thoughts on braided anchor line?
Keep those suggestions coming! I am back to Square One.
And my back hurts.
Dean
Could I see photos of your installations?
I have tried just using my brute strength. Unfortunately, I am no brute, and my back is funky already. As we say down south (where I'm actually from), it like to killed me.
Rich and Melissa Abato suggested that I try a braided anchor line. This would make the line compress better after it falls into the locker; perhaps this would then create enough space that I would have enough fall that I could, if I move the windlass, wind straight into a hawse pipe.
Then, of course, I would need a wash-down pump. But that is not a huge job. Of course, I will need a way to secure the nozzle somehow so that it shoots at the chain as it comes over the bow roller, since the crew (me) will have his hands full with the windlass.
We are hauling the boat next week, and I hope to start on all of this soon.
In addition to pix of Anchorman installations, I would also be interested in hearing suggestions for good manual horizontal windlasses, and pix of their installations. There is a Lofrans one which looks good, but it has aluminum gears. (None of Lofrans' other windlasses do.)
Also, any thoughts on braided anchor line?
Keep those suggestions coming! I am back to Square One.
And my back hurts.
Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Here's a photo of Magdalena's foredeck for comparison. The original CD hawsepipe is visible aft, stbd. This geometry works very well.
<img src="http://astro.uchicago.edu/~rfl//foredeck/IMG_4009.jpg">
<img src="http://astro.uchicago.edu/~rfl//foredeck/IMG_4009.jpg">
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Nice
Bob, thanks for posting that photo. That is a nice tidy arrangement.
Do you use a wash-down system of any kind?
Dean
Do you use a wash-down system of any kind?
Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
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Howell and James
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Mar 23rd, '08, 05:44
- Location: CD 33 Ragtime Porthmadog, Wales, U.K.
Anchor windlass
I have been reading with interest these messages about windlasses. We have a Cape Dory 33 which has an anchor locker and the cleats aft either side of the deck. We plan to fit a manual windlass this winter. Has anyone pictures/information of sucessful windlasses and any problems encountered fitting them. Howell and James
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Tom Keevil
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 23:45
- Location: Cape Dory 33 "Rover" Hull #66
CD33 Windlass
Here's our windlass installation, a manual vertical Lewmar.
The chain falls into the open locker as it strips off the windlass. It works well for retrieving. It's not so good for letting chain out, as it will chip the gel coat as it rapidly comes out of the locker. We have a chain stopper at the bow, and use that when we let the chain out by hand. Letting it out by hand also gives us good control, so we don't just dump a pile of chain in a heap. The windlass requires two backing plates; one in the chain locker, and a second in the V-berth, since the windlass straddles the bulkhead. This was one our best additions to our boat, as it greatly facilitates anchor raising.
The chain falls into the open locker as it strips off the windlass. It works well for retrieving. It's not so good for letting chain out, as it will chip the gel coat as it rapidly comes out of the locker. We have a chain stopper at the bow, and use that when we let the chain out by hand. Letting it out by hand also gives us good control, so we don't just dump a pile of chain in a heap. The windlass requires two backing plates; one in the chain locker, and a second in the V-berth, since the windlass straddles the bulkhead. This was one our best additions to our boat, as it greatly facilitates anchor raising.
Tom and Jean Keevil
CD33 Rover
Ashland OR and Ladysmith, BC
CD33 Rover
Ashland OR and Ladysmith, BC
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Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"