Ah . . . Boat Brokers!

[MFC]

What would you all think of a broker who informs you that a boat you drove 5 hours to see is covered with a fairclough cover -- and will remain so until it is surveyed? In other words: "nice to meet you, feel free to crawl around under the cover and inspect the boat . . .".

I found it incredibly rude. It is also not particularly conducive to the sale of the boat -- unless, of course, there is something to be gained from leaving the cover on (maybe keeping a wet boat dry or hiding something ugly???).

Am I missing something? Does this seem at all reasonable to any of you? Would you even consider making an offer under such circumstances?

Just my most recent boat broker experience . . ..

[Sea Hunt]

For what it may be worth, I am a "tadpole sailor' literally and figuratively, but, my recommendation is walk away from this deal.

Wait, I am mistaken. Do not walk away. RUN AWAY

A broker will generally receive a 10% commission (what the buyer puts up at time of signing the contract). It is, respectfully, nonsense, to tell a prospective buyer that the seller will not remove the winter cover until a survey. This means the buyer is basically "buying" the sailboat without an opportunity to look at her, her engine, systems, plumbing, etc. before the survey.

This scenario was presented to me twice over the past 5 years. I politely, but firmly, said "NO". The seller of one CD said "oh, OK, sorry." The broker for the other said "these are the terms". The second sailboat remained on Yachtworld for almost 2 years and eventually was removed from the listing. I do not know if it was sold or the seller and broker decided to advertise somewhere else or if some other scenario took place.

In this market, if the seller (and/or broker) is not bending over backwards to accommodate a good faith and earnest buyer, then the response of the buyer should be simple: "There are a lot of other sailboats for sale. Have a nice day".

On a brighter note, as I am exclusively looking for a Cape Dory sailboat, my experience with Cape Dory owners has, almost uniformly, been positive. They want to show you their "baby"; they want to take you out sailing; they are reluctant to sell. In my mind, old, warped and war torn as it may well be, these are good signals.

[MFC]

Robert -

You, of all people, are not a tadpole boat shopper!!!

Seriously, let me join the legions who have suggested that your excessive modesty does you a disservice. You've looked at many many more boats than I have (and your days on the water are adding up too ). So, your opinion is exactly of the sort I was seeking. Thanks.

Matt

[Tom Javor]

Apologies for sort of hijacking this thread but I'm frustrated...

In recent weeks I've called 3 brokers with specific questions about boats I was (key word) interested in, one of them I had looked at which is a story in itself. With that one the broker gave me an address on Cape Cod, almost 2 hours from here. Got out to the house and there was no boat there - called the broker and he said he needed to contact the owner bt when he last spoke to the owner in THE FALL that's where it was. This clown sent me on a 175 mile round trip and hadn't even called the owner. Rather than an abject apology he sort of laughed off the situation. Eventually my cel rang and it was the owner to tell me the boat was now in RI about 10 miles from my home...

Went to look at the boat (not a CD) and the owner told me that certain equipment listed wth the boat wasn't included. I asked for his new modified asking price since the trailer was no longer included, he didn't know what his price would be. A few weeks after this -and a decent amount of thought about that boat - I called the broker back. Still no apology but I asked him about the price of the boat and hesaid it was as listed.

Told him the trailer was no longer included - he said that wasn't the case but would check into it and get back to me. Weeks later and I haven't gotten a call - I'm now at the point where I doubt I would buy a boat this guy is handlng if it was in perfect shape and at an excellnt price.

I've called 2 others since then looking for more information/photos before I go hauling off to Long Island or NJ. Neither of them have had the courtesy of returning a call or sending an email.

As for the local guy who is supposedy my "buyer's broker" - he has a list of specific makes/models I am interested in and has not notifed me of a single listing for any of these that have come up.

I'm an active buyer and working with cash. What exactly do these people do ???? Given the current economy I started this process expecting to have my phone ringing with brokers and new listings.

Another interesting thing - one boat I looked at in early spring has not sold yet - and the broker recently advised the owner to RAISE the price by close to 20%.......

[Queen Elvis]

Is it as simple as saying you're a broker? Or is there some form of licencing? I suspect the latter and even think I can hear the laughter from some at my question....... But maybe I'm wrong (again) and there is some form of required training, etc. Is that more laughter I hear?

[Tom Javor]

I would say that most of them have had extensive experience in strategic planning at US automakers...

[Sea Hunt]

Welcome to the wonderful world of buying a sailboat through a broker. There are advantages and disadvantages.

Each state has its own regulations (or lack thereof) for holding yourself out as a "yacht broker". Florida requires you to be licensed, as does California and several other states. Some states do not.

From my experience brokers are like all other occupations. There are some good ones and some bad ones. I have never traveled (car or plane) to look at a sailboat without detailed information, current photos, etc. of what I will be looking at. If the broker cannot provide this or cannot timely return phone calls that is a big red flag for me. No ticket, no travel.

Brokers can be helpful sometimes, especially if the owner/seller has unrealistic expectations of selling price. His commission is determined by the selling price, just like a real estate broker. A 10% commission on a $50,000 boat sale is $5,000 - paid by the seller. However, a 10% commission on a $40,000 boat sale is $4,000 - again paid by the seller. So, the broker only "looses" $1,000 whereas the seller "looses" $9,000. The broker is more willing to take a $1,000 "loss" than the seller is to take what the seller views as a $9,000 "loss", despite the relative percentage drops.

I have had brokers show up to a boat inspection and not have a clue about the boat. Red flag. I have also had brokers who were very knowledgeable about Cape Dory sailboats in general and the specific CD I was looking at. It's a crap shoot.

Tom, if that broker who sent you on a wild goose chase was not going to be present at the boat, respectfully, you should not have gone. It's a signal he does not have an interest in the sale or does not have an open line of communication with the seller - both red flags.

I have never really heard of a "buyer's broker". In theory he should be someone who is aggressively looking for a sailboat that meets your conditions/requirements. If a purchase takes place he gets a commission from you, not the seller. It is possible he could get a commission split from the selling broker, if there is one, but unlikely. It is less regulated that real estate broker commissions.

With Internet access today, it is really not necessary to have a "buyer's broker". There is not much he can do that you cannot do on your own at zero expense. The broker is not going to travel with you to look at a sailboat - at least not likely. The only advantage would be if he is an experienced surveyor/broker and can give you expert advise on hull, deck, rigging, onboard systems, etc.

Ain't looking for a sailboat fun

[Maine Sail]

Let's see. I am an owner of a sailboat who has chosen to invest BIG money in a proper high quality & breathable protective Fairclough cover for my boat that I have taken good care of.

The boat is for sale due to health or time constraints and on the hard. I personally would NOT choose to leave it uncovered and also would NOT uncover it f& recover it for every Joe Schmoe tire kicker, of which there are TONS.

I think you may just be passing up a fine vessel over a very silly reason.

Having bought nearly 30 vessels in my life time the decisions to move forward was done on nearly 50% of them with the cover on. Do you have any idea of the time and effort it takes to remove and replace a Fairclough cover so one guy who is "interested" can see the boat without the cover on.

Buy a flashlight and bring a Tyvek suit for crawling around. If you live in Northern climes a cover is a reality and a Fairclough cover is usually a sign of a festidious owner not someone who is trying to scam you. If my boat were for sale and on the hard it would be covered. Unless you wanted to pay for removal and replacement labor so you could "look" the cover would stay on...

Just another view point contrary to all the broker/owner bashing..

[Tom Javor]

In theory a buyer's broker is supposed to be on the lookout for a boat that meets a specific buyer's interests/needs. As in an mls real estate transaction they are compensated with a share on the selling broker's commission.

I had "current" pictures of the boat onthe Cape before heading out to see it. The red flag I should have seen was that the boat was listed with a RI broker but on the Cape. To be honest, it never dawned on me that the broker would not call the owner to say he was sending someone to see the boat, seems natural he would want to represent himself as doing something.

Certainly don't mean to imply that there are no decent brokers around. What I am saying is that I haven't been fortunate enough to deal with one.

I have looked at shrink-wrapped boats(I will not look at a boat that is under canvas as much as I prefer a boat be stored that way, canvas tends to breath a bit and thing never seem as musty etc ), but made it clear to the seller that if I was interested in making an offer it was contingent on my inspection of the boat without the covering. And that I reserved the right to cancel for flaws/ issues I discovered PRIOR to having the boat surveyed. If the seller won't trust my intention not to knit pick and to follow through on the purchase then I certainly can't trust that they aren't trying to hide something.

In the one case where I had the wrap removed I "discovered" serious (to me at least) cosmetic issues. Tthe owner (and his broker) could have prevented this if they had disclosed there was a sizeable badly matched repair on the foward end of the cabin. Structurally things appeared sound but the gelcoat/whatever over the patch was not even a close color/gloss match once the cover was off - it appeared as a shadow under the shrinkwrap. Had this been disclosed I probably would have adjusted my offer and gone ahead with a survey, as it was it made me wonder what other issues were lurking and decide against spending the money on a survey.

True, there is an expense in uncovering a boat for a potential buyer, just as there is in keeping lights/heat/etc on in a house that is for sale. I would not make an offer on a car that was covered with a shipping tarp nor would I make an offer on a house covered with scaffolding or a bug tent.

In my opinion it is the seller's responibility to present the goods in a condition and state that they can be adequately inspected. As I said above - I will compromise a bit on this and look at a shrinkwrapped boat - the cover is translucent and allows for daylight. But canvas - sorry, it's like working in a closed shipping container.

[Sea Hunt]

Mainsail:

No sailing for me today - 20-22 kts ESE. Beyond my abilities. So, a cup of coffee and some comments.

I generally agree with your observations. As I had said, there are good brokers; there are bad brokers.

I am a rookie/tadpole sailor. I have only bought one little sailboat in my whole life and am now looking for another sailboat. I do not have your experience and hopefully never will have 30 boats Wow My comments were solely from the prospective view of the "buyer" not the seller. You have experience from both sides of the transaction. I defer to you.

I recently showed my little Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender to someone who said they may be interested in buying IF I am interested in selling. I told this guy everything about my Ty - the good, the bad, everything and made it clear I am "on the fence" about selling. There are nicks and dings you really can't see unless you look really, really carefully. I pointed them out. Although listed as a "weekender" it ain't - at least not for an old, fat, out of shape and now way too pampered "sailor" like myself. I explained this to him. I cannot keep a straight track in reverse although I seldom need to. I explained this to him and said I believe this is true of most CDs - but not sure why. I also explained that because it has a full keel it does NOT turn on a dime. Finally, I told him the surveyor had said there were some minor moisture readings on the port and starboard winches where they attach to the deck. The boatyard manager where I had her on the hard for a few weeks and who is a 40-45 year sailor took a moisture reading and said it was very, very minor and well within limits. He said removing and rebedding hardware would be a waste of time although he had a guy who would be glad to do it. I explained all of this to the guy looking at S/V Tadpole and will do the same for anyone else who looks.

I gathered from Matt's post that the broker did not tell Matt the sailboat had a Fairclough cover on it until after he had driven 5 hours. If the broker disclosed this fact to Matt before Matt decided to drive 5 hours then the broker has done his job.

I have had a couple of brokers tell me that a sailboat that is for sale is presently shrink wrapped. The owner will agree to remove some or all of the shrink wrap but I must agree to pay to have it "reshrunk" (not sure if that is a word ). No problem. I know what I am getting into in advance. What would bother me (it has not yet happened to me) would be if I drove or flew someplace and learned about the shrink wrap and cost of rewrapping as I walked up to the boat.

I am confident you would agree with this Mainsail.

[Sea Hunt]

Mainsail:

Not really knowing what a Fairclough cover is, I decided to learn one new thing today. I went to the Fairclough Sailmakers website.

One word. Wow That is one impressive cover. Yes, I would completely agree with you that someone who has invested in this rig is probably someone who cares about his sailboat.

The only issue I see is how would any average sailor be able to inspect the deck, topsides, cockpit, etc. without uncovering a large portion of the Fairclough cover From the picture on their website it looks like the cover goes down almost to the keel.

As long as the broker and/or seller tell all prospective buyers that the sailboat is covered with a Fairclough cover that will not be removed until survey, I have absolutely no problem with this arrangement. I do not have your expertise and would not look at this sailboat because I would be in uncomfortable surroundings. However, someone with your experience I understand could easily crawl around and observe all you needed to observe.

Interested in coming to sunny, warm South Florida to help me look at and inspect a few sailboats I may be interested in None have a Fairclough cover; none are shrink wrapped. They are in the water lying to a mooring or at a dock. Temps the next few weeks will be warm - 85-88 degrees, slightly elevated winds (E, ESE), low humidity. I can promise free beer and lively discussions of the pros and cons of using a broker.

[Queen Elvis]

Impressive covers, indeed. But the company insists on getting too much personal information without a secure contact form or even a privacy statement. I submitted a quote request, clearly but politely telling them I wasn't happy with that situation. I'll let you all know how much the cover costs for my CD 28, if they respond.

[MFC]

Geeze, I didn't mean to disparage all boat brokers . . . just the one's I've dealt with joke . . .

Anyway, it is useful to hear the perspective of the seller on keeping a boat covered while its on the market. Personally, I don't think it is conducive to selling a boat. Beyond that, the broker definitely should have told me the boat would be covered before I drove 10 hours up and back. I can see how a seller might believe it in his best interest to keep the cover on. However, I feel the combined burden of sun exposure and cost of spring removal and fall covering are inconsequential compared to the benefits of showing the boat properly.

I think I mentioned, this boat has a couple of unique issues which make me question why it is covered . . .. I suppose I'll never know!

Thanks.
Matt

[Gary M]

I just had to weigh in with this story.

On my latest search for a CD22 I came across one up in the Great Lakes area. A CD22D in great shape with a trailer.

Well, the Great Lakes is a long way from Los Angeles but there is a trailer and I am following up all leads 'cause you never know what will happen.

I sent the broker an email stating my interests and a long list of things that were very important to me.

She emailed me back, thanking me for my interest and told me it was a "really cute little boat!"

I emailed her back and pointed out that none of my questions were answered including a list of the boats equipment, sails and inventory.

She emailed me back with the CD22D's description. Things common to all CD22D's like weight, beam, length and so on.

I emailed again and put emphasis on the trailer being "road worthy."

She emailed me back saying the owner was in the process of completely redoing the trailer to make it road worthy.

I emailed her back and asked her to remark on the rest of my questions.

She emailed me back and said, "What do you expect from a 24 year old boat?"

I emailed her back and said, "I expect to know as much as possible about the boat before I travel from Los Angeles to see the boat and get a survey."

She never returned my email, saving me a lot of time and money.

Gary

[Sea Hunt]

Don't anybody ask why I am sitting at home at 1400 hrs on a beautiful but windy South Florida day. I have to be here and I ain't happy

I know many on this board have much more experience than I do looking at/for sailboats they are interested in.

I have learned a few rules:

1. Always get the broker or seller to provide you with current photos exterior and interior, unless the boat is located in your home town and is a 10-15 minute drive to inspect. Although I am not very knowledgeable about digital photos, I know they have date stamps on the photos. Confirm the date stamps. Perhaps Dean A. or another photog can discuss how to get/decipher the digital date stamp. This knowledge is well above my pay grade

2. Always get a current inventory list (it does not have to be exhaustively detailed) including sail inventory, engine, electronics (GPS, radar, etc.). If the seller or broker cannot readily provide this then the seller is not interested in selling or the broker lacks necessary marketing skills to get the seller to provide what any prudent buyer would want. I want to know what the asking price is based on - what's included.

3. Always ask if there are any significant issues with the sailboat you should know about. If the broker or seller says "yes" and explains them, you know in advance you are probably dealing with an honest seller. If the broker says "Oh, noooo, she's a real beauty" ala the Great Lakes broker Gary dealt with, then she may or may not be telling the truth. I always tell the broker/seller -"please understand, if I make an offer it will be contingent upon a full marine survey, engine test, sea trial, etc. It's a lot better for both of us to tell me about significant issues now. You will only be wasting your time and my time if the survey discovers issues that should be obvious to a current owner". If you go forward with an inspection, offer and survey and find a significant issue that was obviously withheld - RUN, do not walk away. There are probably others as well. Note: I am NOT talking about issues that are not obvious to an owner. Those issues are what surveyors are for and what allows the seller and buyer to renegotiate the final selling price.

4. Always be completely honest with the broker/seller. It may not be conducive to buying a sailboat but I sleep very well at night knowing that, regardless of how the broker/seller acted, I behaved honorably and was honest about my intentions, plans, etc.

5. As Gary did, confirm all important conversations and representations via email in advance of spending any significant time or money on looking at a sailboat. Make sure the broker/seller understand that you are relying on the representations they have made to you. Most people are not overtly and aggressively dishonest (Bernie Maddow being an obvious exception). However, a lot of people tend to exaggerate, have selective amnesia, etc. If you tell them you will hold them to their statements, it reduces the exaggeration/amnesia factor.

I am often amazed at the stories I can come up with in bar after a few beers while talking to a pretty girl. One of these days I have really got to frame that Harvard Medical School degree I don't have and actually work with "Docs Without Borders" for two years .

On a serious note again, getting current photos, a current inventory list and a statement from the broker/seller about whether there are "significant issues" will, in my judgment, eliminate or avoid wasting time on 90% of the problem sailboats.

All of the above being said, I will restate what I have said in other posts months ago. To date, with one aberrant exception, every single Cape Dory owner/seller I have met has been honest, decent, helpful, and caring. A few have been obviously conflicted about whether to sell their pride and joy - a sentiment I am coming to appreciate more and more as I decide what to do with S/V Tadpole. But they have been honest and upfront about their Cape Dory. No one can ask more than that.

Oh yes, I have also met some really nice brokers who were knowledgeable about Cape Dory sailboats and wanted to be helpful.