First sailboat

[bpiperno]

Hi everybody,

I am looking to buy my first sailboat. I am going over the literature, specs etc. I live in Jacksonville, FL and the boat will stay in St Augustine or Amelia Island. I will be using the boat for day sailing but I will be venturing out couple of miles in the ocean. Planning also in the near future short distance coastal cruising. I will be singlehanding most of the time. I am not planning to race and not planning to sail with strong winds (forecast permitting).
I like everything I read about CD 25 D, 27 and 28. Specially the safety factor.
Here are the questions:
1) Are they proper for the use I intend to?
2) I read that the 27 (my preference) could be too slow, is that right?
3)Should I be looking a "performance boat".
4)Is the D/L ratio to high for the CD 27?
5)Is the CD 28 too big of a boat for a first boat and to single handling it???

I will really appreciate anybody's input. I really like the CD but I want to make sure I am buying the right boat. I will be happy to talk to anybody who owns a 25d, 27 or 28.
Thank you very much.
Benjamin



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[Neil Gordon]

>>I like everything I read about CD 25 D, 27 and 28. <<

>>Are they proper for the use I intend to?<<

Any of the three will be a good day sailor or coastal cruiser. If you want to go a bit further, any of the three will take you around the world.

>>I read that the 27 (my preference) could be too slow, is that right?<<

It's considered by some to be a good performance boat as compared to the other Cape Dory models. As compared to some more modern, lighter designs, it may be slower. But if that's true, you'll look a lot better sailing slowly than they will going a bit faster. And when the wind pipes up or you hit a squall, you'll be happier with a Cape Dory.

>>Should I be looking a "performance boat".<<

That's a personal preference question. You don't plan to race, just day sail and coastal cruise. Do you need "performance"?

>>Is the D/L ratio to high for the CD 27?<<

No.

Is the CD 28 too big of a boat for a first boat and to single handling it???<<

No and no. It's my first boat and no problem sailing alone. Go slowly and learn and you'll be fine.

[Oswego John]

Hi Benjmin,

Allow me to congratulate you for your good taste in considering purchasing a Cape Dory.

You have mentioned several points influencing your arrival at a decision as to which size CD is best for you. There are some important factors that weren't mentioned, as well. I keep using the thought that this will be your first boat as the common denominator for the rest of the reasons in regard to which boat is best for you.

Do you sail? If so, at what level do you regard your sailing? Have you single handed a medium size boat with confidence? (Although this will come with with time and experience.)

You say that you will use the boat mainly for day sailing. How often do you expect to be able to sail? You could do what so many other sailors did, start off with a smaller size CD 25 or a CD 25D and as the confidence builds, go up in size to what you think is realistic for your ability. After all, you mentioned that most of your sailing will be single handed. How much boat will you initially need. There is one thing that I have noticed is that is a small or medium sized CD in average to excellent shape will resell in a heartbeat. Their reputation is appreciated on the market.

Another point worth mentioning is what is your financial situation in purchasing and maintaining a boat. The initial cost of the CD is forgotten long after the quality remains. How handy are you in maintaining your boat? Do you have the surety of finding a place to moor or slip the boat? I'm sure that you already realize that the cost of hauling, maintaining, storing and providing a place to sail from in season is based on the length and sometimes weight of the boat.

There have been some that I have heard of that have gone into boating head first without weighing all the other factors that go with the territory. After a year or two, they left sailing with a bad taste in their mouth. They became overwhelmed by the hidden taxes involved.

Based on what you have stated, I don't think that you couldn't go far off with the purchase of a CD 25 or a CD 25D. I don't think that you need a performance boat to fulfill your desires.

Good luck,
O J

[trapper]

Hi Benjamin,

There are lots of folks on the board who can advise much better than I can. I put my 2 cents in only because I currently own (or at least live with) 3 boats, a 40' ketch, a 27' race boat, and a CD25D. My husband single handed the ketch across the Atlantic. So single handing is not an issue with any of the boats you are considering. The ketch is currently on the hard, but when she was in the water, we rarely took her out. It takes all day to get out of the harbor and set the sails so we would sail the CD if the sails were going to come down within 24 hours of putting them up. None of your prospects would have that problem, but the larger the boat the more systems to check, operate and maintain. As for the race boat, mine is for sale. If the wind is not blowing, I am more comfortable on the CD25D. If the wind is blowing I am both more comfortable and safer on the CD25D. Additionally, a 27' race boat takes a crew of 6 to really be competitive.

As for the choice between the CDs 25-28, I only have experience with the 25D. I had a CD22 which was just a little small for my needs but I loved her. Before settling on the 25D, I looked at a 28 and considered the 25D, 26, 27 and 28. I decided on the smallest boat that would meet my needs. Good luck! What a great search you have ahead of you.

[winthrop fisher]

hi and welcome to the cd board...

both boats can do the job, but can you ???

the 27 or the 28 are both good boats,

but i would tell you to hire some one to go with you until you can sail alone with convince...

besides they will show how to sail alone with out any help...

any one just started out should have help in sailing 101...

just remenber the bigger the more expense in ever thing...
winthrop

[J D]

Hi Benjamin, I own and sail a CD 27. It was my first and probably will be my only boat. I've been really pleased with her. It was a cruiser I wanted and that's what these boats are. She makes me feel safe and secure and I can do her alone. If my sailing was all day sailing and all a few hours back to home, I may have chosen something lighter and more agile and could have spent allot less to get it. Whatever you choose I recommend you hire a well recommended surveyor to look it over before you buy. It may be the smartest money you ever spend. Good luck with your search. John

[Warren Kaplan]

I've had my CD27 since 2000. Fitted her out to bring lines back to the cockpit. And I installed a tiller pilot and self tailing winches. All make single handing a breeze! I do 90% of my sailing single handed and even in big winds its no problem to handle her alone.

The boat is rugged. If you take care of her she'll take care of you.

If I had weeks and weeks to go non stop cruising I "might" consider a larger boat. I primarily daysail, or do long weekends. Sometimes an extended sail and the CD27 is just great for that.

She's not a great very light air boat, but sailing in very light air on almost any boat sucks anyway so I don't mind turning on the engine when the wind is a roaring 3 knots!

Once the wind gets up to 8-10+, the CD27 is surprisingly fast!! It amazes me sometimes how fast she actually is in 10 knots. Of course ya' need decent sails and sail trim and the boat will respond if you do.

[KDreese]

My first boat was a CD25 (not a 25D) and was a terrific investment. I bought the boat for less than $5K and it had a lot of the major work already done (re-wiring, painted, new thru hulls, newer engine, etc.). It sat for two years so I had to do 100+ hours of TLC to the wood and cleaning.

However, for a small investment paid in cash I was able to move from sailing dinghies on a river to getting out on the ocean. I single hand the boat 99.9% of the time, and the CD was fast enough and safe enough for me to learn how to handle a bigger boat. Also, I stay overnight occasionally, and have learned a TON about navigation and how to maintain and take care of boat. Now I really know what I want in my next boat (must have's and the things to live without).

My point is that if you are looking at CD25's, 27's, etc. you can obtain a nice, safe sweet sailing boat for a small investment. In my opinion you cant go wrong with any of the CD's on your list. Also, this forum and owners group was part of why I chose a CD and can not be undervalued. I check the board daily and have not only learned a lot about CD's, sailing, and other boats, but I have also been able to source some parts from anchors to winches. Overall terrific value for the money.

Good luck in your search!

Kevin

[Neil Gordon]

I looked at both the 27 and 28 before buying a 28 and I'm familiar with the 25D. The boats are more the same than they are different. Several comments:

A good comment about bigger might = more systems. (More systems make the boat more like your house.) Fresh from the factory though, the systems of all of the three models were essentially the same... motor, electrical, simple water and head.

If you can single hand a 25D, you can single hand a 27 or a 28.

The interior space and creature comfort increases a bit as size goes up and you get more hull speed from the bigger boat.

As mentioned, bigger will cost more to buy, more to maintain, more to insure and more to park. Buy what you can afford because none of them would be a mistake.

[Dean Abramson]

If it is mainly going to be you alone, and you don't need lots of bunks, the 25D's roomy head forward is a very nice feature. And the salon is roomier because of no vee berth forward.

If I were you, I would not try to decide which model you want now. All are excellent boats which are up to the task. Look at as many as you can of all three models. And wait for one of them to speak to you. A 27 in great shape nearby might trump a tired 28 a thousand miles away. A 25D with a recent paint job might beat out a 27 that someone cut big holes in for air-conditioning you don't want. A faded 28 with radar and an autopilot might get the edge over a shiny 25D with very little gear. Or whatever.

It's nice to know how to focus your search, but in the end it is going to come down to deciding between the actual boats that are available, and weighing the plusses and minuses of each particular vessel.

The looking part can be fun. Don't rush it. It pays to see a lot of boats, even ones of the same model. You will learn a lot, and then at some point one will just feel right. And you will have seen enough to make a good decision.

I would also say this: figure on spending 25% to 50% more to get her up YOUR standards. These boats are old, and like all old boats, they do eat money. If you buy the priciest boat you can afford, you won't have enough cash left to get her right.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Dean

[Troy Scott]

Benjamin,

I have owned several sailboats. I bought the first in about 1979. I learned to sail alone in a "Dolphin" when I was a teenager back in the 60s. My first boat was a new Chrysler 22. Awful boat. Low quality, leaky, loose....., but it was pretty and RED. I've learned a LOT since then. Fortunately I was introduced early-on to the Cape Dory line. I bought a new Typhoon in about 1981. The beauty of that boat and the fine sailing characteristics always made me smile. I bought a 150 Genoa instead of a motor and never regretted it. The only drawback was that the boat was small and this made guests uncomfortable. After a year or so I had an opportunity to buy an almost new CD25 that had been traded in to Bay Nautical Supply Company (Fairhope, AL) by folks who bought a CD27. I spent a lot of time fixing up the boat and I had a ball with her for a few years. She was pretty, but she had that inboard-in-a-well (not good for a boat that stays in the water) and I could never get rid of the considerable weather-helm. Then I heard about a really good deal on a brand new CD22 that had been in the showroom too long, so I sold the CD25 and bought the 22. The boat was smaller, but actually faster and easier to sail. Less weather-helm and the outboard was able to be pulled up out of the water. Unfortunately this also made the outboard attractive to a thief who helped himself to it one night. I took the insurance money and put it on a drifter, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and I never missed or replaced the motor. A few years later I got the bug for a boat I could actually stand up in (this happens to almost everybody at some point) and an inboard diesel. I had also developed a long list of gadgets I thought would make my "ideal boat" perfectly comfortable. So I lost my senses and proceeded to order a brand new Catalina 27 and fit it out with all the gadgets I thought I had to have. Well, that was fun, but it was also an expensive lesson. The quality was so-so, the gadgets were a lot of trouble to maintain, and I sailed less. But at least in this more commodious boat I had lots of company! Later I decided a higher-quality, simpler boat would suit me better. At the time I was closely watching the saga of Tania Aebi sailing around the world alone at 16 and 17 years of age. So I decided to buy her boat. Well, not HER boat, but a brand new 1985 Contessa 26. I outfitted her simply and loved her. Of course I was back in a smaller boat I couldn't stand up in, and this led to more time alone. The next year I started flying, and being middle class, I couldn't seem to afford both sailing and flying at once, so I sold the boat. I didn't own a boat again until the year before Hurricane Katrina, when I and a friend bought a Pearson 33, which was destroyed by the storm just as we had declared her "all fixed up" and ready. These days, I'm restoring a CD36 in my shop. This "history" is just a backdrop so you will know where my comments are coming from. Here are some thoughts about your boat acquisition project:

1. If you haven't already, sail with folks who own these boats already. Do as much of the sail handling and steering as you can get permission to do. Get a feel for what it would be like to single hand the boats. Imagine cruising and sleeping aboard. Ask lots of questions, take notes and organize the answers to see if a pattern emerges. This pattern will tell you exactly which boat you should have.

2. Learn which questions to ask. Which boats have structural issues and what are they? Which boats have problems that were solved in later models?

3. Decide if you will just daysail, or if you want to be comfortable living on the boat for days at a time. This is the determining factor for standing headroom, a stove, a shower, etc..

4. A tiller or a wheel. They both work equally well for steering the boat, but the AUTOPILOT for a tiller is far more affordable that one for a wheel. You WILL want an autopilot. Even the simplest autopilot will be the most helpful addition you can make on a sailboat, especially if you singlehand or sail with beginners.

5. Add "gadgets" slowly and after careful consideration.

6. Don't worry if folks say a boat is "slow". If it's beautiful and lots of people like it, it probably sails well. Buy yourself a flasher or a drifter or some other big light air sail and use it when the wind is light. You'll have a ball. End of problem.

7. Small sized boats are difficult to sail. Slightly bigger boats can actually be more stable, enough so to make single handing them EASIER than sailing a small boat. But when a boat gets big enough that you can't personally deal with her inertia when docking, you will sail less often because you will always want crew.

8. Don't buy any boat unless she speaks to you in a way that makes you unable to walk away from her without turning around to look once more...., imagining what life would be like if she were yours.

I'm sure this all sounds a little more whimsical than practical, but I think that's probably what personal sailing is about. Good luck with your quest!

[Markst95]

Troy, My story is similar to yours, as is probably true of many who sail. I've gone from sailboat to sailboat, poured way too much money into them, only to go do it again...and again... and again. Its amazing how much influence the water and sailing can have on your life. I'd have to say that other than my family it is without doubt the thing I am most passionate about. My wife chides me that she never has to worry about another woman because all I dream about is sailing. Mark

[bpiperno]

Thanks to everybody for your thoughtful advise.
This Board is unbelievable. I did not expect to have this type of response.

Any thoughts on Sailtime?

Even tough I have not sailed any of these boats, because of their price range and their reviews I am leaning to either a CD or a Bristol 27.
I am hoping to start seriously to look for one very soon.
I will make sure to follow your recommendations.

I really appreciate everybody's input. Keep the coming and I promise I will keep you posted.

Thanks again.
Benjamin

[Amgine]

I'm the ecstatic owner of a 1984 25D. I haven't sailed anything solo larger than a 41', and most of my experience has been 30' and less LOA.

The boat is great, everything I expected and more. There are no bad habits, and turns heads wherever I sail. I've soloed it several thousand miles of the British Columbia coast, including circumnavigating Vancouver Island which is considered the local hairy-chested adventure.

Despite being a primarily solo sailor, I'm only now getting around to upgrading systems to make it easier to sail alone. That's because the convenience of self-tailing winches, etc., is simply not that important on the 25D - they're nice-to-have not must-have to sail this boat.

I've just ordered new full-batten main, 135 genoa, and 100 jib. The prices from a top loft and with his best hardware came out to $3800 Canadian; about $3100 US. Not cheap, but I've known boats where that would only get a single sail. For haul-out, bottom paint, new SS shaft, new prop, cutlass bearing, zincs and a few other details ran $1500 at a US yard last fall, but they wouldn't let me touch the boat to do any of the work either. You might not need to do all this work on any boat you purchase, but these are some numbers to use for comparisons.

My sailing area tends to the rough and ready - not a lot of marina stops because there aren't any. So for me anchoring hardware is important. The anchor locker is big enough to stow two anchors with rodes (70' chain + 200' nylon, 30' chain + 200' nylon). I'm planning some changes here, too, but it's enough for now.

[Dick Barthel]

Benjamin,

The 25D is the 28's little sister. I've sailed mine to places with a mate and its adequate in size down below. Its famous for its large private head. Her cockpit is roomy for two. When I go places alone it seems huge. It is amazingly sea friendly for a 25 foot boat. I've been on 28s and while I agree with Neil, you could also single hand one....I'd just say the 25D is almost the perfect single hand boat taking all into account. And it is so cozy down below. Buying things will be cheaper, handling sails easier, etc.

A lot of people on the board seem to agree that the 27 is the sleekest looking and perhaps the best looking of the CDs. I know what they mean, but I never get tired of looking at Dream Weaver either.

This board is an excellent place to begin your dream. Don't rush and keep monitoring and you'll learn a lot. That's just what I did. Stay away from threads that discuss whether or not to lock your prop or you'll never have time to find a boat!

Good luck!

Dick