How much chain can be manually lifted, comfortably?

[darmoose]

Perhaps if Johns credibility were a little higher at the moment noone would question anything he says.(as I for one would like to be able to do) It is no discredit to be mistaken, you know?

Perhaps if he would engage in bringing to finality the epic discussion he started regarding prop drag, and either prove me wrong or admit he is mistaken, rather than infrequently simply getting in a dig and dissappearing he would find better acceptability to his remarks. Now that the evidence is mounting in favor of the freewheelers, you know?

No disrespect intended, just want to establish the facts. I cant help wonder what John thinks about the recent Boat US article by technical writer Chuck Husik?

Darrell

[John Vigor]

I think 90' could be feasible for an average guy in decent shape. West Marine list 5/16 at 1.2 lb.s per foot so you have 108 lbs. at 90' Add a 35lb anchor you ae only talking about 140 lbs.

If any of you guys go to the gym just think of your standard 45lb plate. Its not really a big deal to carry one in each hand and you are only using your finger tips. Pulling 140 lbs. a few feet at a time should be doable.

Joe. it's not even 140 pounds. BBB chain at 5/16-inch weights 0.91 pounds per foot. So 90 feet would weigh 82 pounds. Add an anchor at 35 pounds and you get 117 pounds. Now steel doesn't "weigh" the same under water as it does above water. It "weighs" 13 percent less.

And 117 pounds minus 13 percent (15 pounds) equals 102 pounds.

It's even more doable than you think, specially if you sit on the foredeck and brace your feet in the anchor well, as I did.

Cheers,

John V.

[winthrop fisher]

how much can you pull up????????

and how old are you???????

try it at anchor some time....

well most of you said it all,

but, when it comes down to it,

how much can you really take by pulling up all that weight?

but ever one is going to be different by how much weight they can take and before you fall over died by the weight....

winthrop.....

[henry hey]

I do not know the difficulty of lifting the chain and tackle of which John speaks, and I did not follow the lengthy and, at this point, throughly worn out discussion about freewheeling props versus fixed props. HOWEVER, I have read Mr. John Vigor's writing and read about his past and experience. His books contain VERY sound knowledge and his experience appears to speak for itself. I would see little reason to disbelieve what he says.

More importantly. . is this quickly bittering discussion simply the winter getting the best of us? Were it sailing season, I doubt that so many would have the energy and desire to pursue this to such a length.

CDSOA has been such a helpful sounding board. Let's get back to the good tradition upon which this group operates best.

My 2c

Henry Hey

[John Danicic]

After back surgery, my physical therapist taught me how to lift heavy weights properly. Weighing anchor was one of them. Before I got my electric windlass, my brother convinced me that more chain was better. Mariah had 50 feet with a 35lb CQR. My PT guy told me to sit down and bracing feet on either side on the toe rails, haul the chain over the roller using arms only while sitting up straight. I sat on a cushion to keep from getting my seat wet and would trail the line and the chain in a pile between my legs. The process was tiring and messy and took a long time but I never hurt my back and I even learned to do it single handing. I could see John Vigor's suggestion of the pawl as being a major improvement as the fear of losing the whole pile was great. After two seasons of that method, I went to "push button anchoring", which is a great convenience and allowed me my “mostly chainâ€

[Cathy Monaghan]

The deepest water we've anchored in has been about 40'. Now we DO NOT have an all chain rode. We use 40' of chain and the rest is nylon rope and no windlass. But I am able to retrieve the 40' of chain with the 35 lb CQR on the end, the nylon's not a problem. I would NOT want to have to lift any more than that onboard manually and I don't think my husband, who is much stronger than I, would want to either. As we get older, it gets more difficult, so pretty soon we may start thinking about adding a windlass.

For what it's worth, you never lift more weight than the weight of the rode measured between the bottom and your hands, and that short length from your hands to the deck. The rest is always laying on the bottom and on the deck. It's not until you lift the anchor off the bottom that the weight of the rode that you're handling increases by the weight of the anchor. But you have to lift ALOT of rode (in 40' of water you'll have over 200' out) so you'll be good and tired by the time you start to lift the anchor off the bottom, so I think it'll seem alot heavier than it actually is, your back will be complaining and you'll probably be out of breath by the time you're finished and your heart will be pounding. If you're by yourself and don't have someone to motor forward to keep the chain slack, it'll be nearly impossible. So if you're going to go with an all chain rode, you really DO need a windlass.

Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

[Russell]

John,

Perhaps I voiced myself too strongly, I apologize for coming across as suggesting you were lying, it was not my intension though I can see rereading my post that it comes across that way.

That said, I still dont think a normal man can hand over hand all chain in 90' without some help. I am not calling you a liar, but you did say "us" and "our", at no point did your crew not give you a hand? (if I was struggling to pull chain up, which you must have struggled some, and I had crew sitting there watching and not lending a hand at all, they wouldnt be crew anymore). A winch was never employed? Your purely hand over handed it, 3 times without any sort of aid? I am not accusing you of lying, but perhaps exageration (which we are ALL prone to). I mean only to contribute to the debate, not to insult you.

Those of you suggesting the weight is not much really. Sure, an average man can lift 150 lbs or more, and once lifted can hold it for awhile. But the initial lift is that hard part. But hand over handing a couple hundred feet of chain, takes a lot of time and doing that lift many times. Can you lift 150+ lbs 50 times in a row without injury? Keep in mind once you get enough in that the anchor is no longer set, you cant sit and take 10min breaks between lifts.

I respect you tremendously John, and am no way accusing you of being a Tristan Jones or anything. But if your make a claim I find hard to beleive, I will certainly not take it for gospel just because you are an immensely accomplished sailor, I will question and spark debate which hopefully we all might learn more from. In the future I will try to word myself better though.

Russell

[marka]

Since I herniated a disc in my back about 5 yrs ago I'm a huge proponent of core body fitness and reasonable weight lifting to keep everything aligned.

Having said that, I hate the thought of what pulling the Bruce out of the aft lazarrett does to my lower back, never mind pulling the anchor up. I'm probably going to invest in a manual windlass on our '27.

[paul marko]

I have been trying to locate a small, manual, anchor windless for the deck of my CD 28. I am looking for one similar in foot print to a S/L 510 , "new" they just do not seem to exist, those available, like the Lofrans royal or ABI are too big.

If anyone can lead me to a source of new or used smaller manual Anchor windless I would appreciate it.

Paul Marko

[Duncan]

I have been trying to locate a small, manual, anchor windless for the deck of my CD 28. I am looking for one similar in foot print to a S/L 510 , "new" they just do not seem to exist, those available, like the Lofrans royal or ABI are too big.

If anyone can lead me to a source of new or used smaller manual Anchor windless I would appreciate it.

Paul Marko

This Muir VM Model seems very compact and low-profile:
http://www.pyacht.com/muir-manual-windlasses.htm

[John Vigor]

John,

Perhaps I voiced myself too strongly, I apologize for coming across as suggesting you were lying, it was not my intension though I can see rereading my post that it comes across that way.

That said, I still dont think a normal man can hand over hand all chain in 90' without some help. I am not calling you a liar, but you did say "us" and "our", at no point did your crew not give you a hand? (if I was struggling to pull chain up, which you must have struggled some, and I had crew sitting there watching and not lending a hand at all, they wouldnt be crew anymore). A winch was never employed? Your purely hand over handed it, 3 times without any sort of aid? I am not accusing you of lying, but perhaps exageration (which we are ALL prone to). I mean only to contribute to the debate, not to insult you.

Those of you suggesting the weight is not much really. Sure, an average man can lift 150 lbs or more, and once lifted can hold it for awhile. But the initial lift is that hard part. But hand over handing a couple hundred feet of chain, takes a lot of time and doing that lift many times. Can you lift 150+ lbs 50 times in a row without injury? Keep in mind once you get enough in that the anchor is no longer set, you cant sit and take 10min breaks between lifts.

I respect you tremendously John, and am no way accusing you of being a Tristan Jones or anything. But if your make a claim I find hard to beleive, I will certainly not take it for gospel just because you are an immensely accomplished sailor, I will question and spark debate which hopefully we all might learn more from. In the future I will try to word myself better though.

Russell

Russell, I don't want to prolong this debate, which must be very boring for other readers. I'll just say it once again: whether you believe me or not, I was able to weigh anchor in 90 feet of water all on my own.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the weight of my anchor and chain under water was about 102 pounds.

I didn't LIFT this weight. I PULLED it. I sat behind the open deck anchor locker, braced my feet against the front end, and pulled back with my arms (just as I do to this very day on my Cape Dory 27).

Each time I pulled in about 3 feet of chain over the bow roller, I dropped it over the gypsy of my manual winch, which was set down in the anchor locker. Dropping it over the gypsy acted as a chain stopper. It prevented the chain from running back and allowed me to get another grip at my leisure.

You ask how I could lift 150 pounds 50 times in a row. I didn't. Nobody has to. Every time you bring in some chain, the load gets lighter. I pulled 102 pounds, but the only time I had to pull 102 pounds was on the very first pull. The second pull was only 99 pounds, and so on. The load gets lighter very quickly and soon it's only the 35-pound anchor plus a bit of chain.

I installed a Simpson Lawrence anchor winch on that boat. It was a manual one with a long lever, but it was appallingly slow. Whenever I could, I raised anchor by hand. The winch was mainly a backup for occasions when the anchor got fouled with a heavy obstruction, but in fact I never had to use it for that purpose.

My crew--my wife and my son, who was then 17 years old--are witnesses to my ability to raise anchor in 90 feet. I would have been glad of their help, for it was heavy work that I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do every day, but the layout of our foredeck and anchor well meant only one person could sit down and pull with any efficiency.

I learned to sail on very simple boats without many mechanical aids, where technique counted a lot more than brute strength. If you've ever ever seen an engineless Thames barge managed by one man, one boy, and a dog, you'll know what I mean. If you've ever learned to swig a halliard taut without a winch, you'll get the idea.

As for exaggeration, I wouldn't doubt that I'm as prone to exaggeration as anybody, but there's no gainsaying the fact that I raised that anchor alone. Winthrop says he raised 170 pounds on his own. He is a very savvy sailor with a lot of experience. I believe him. There are ways a good sailor can do it.

I have no reason to lie about it. I don't feel the need to compete in the anchor-raising stakes, nor do I feel superior to any other sailor. I have never been a supersailor or bodybuilder and have never aspired to be. I am just a writer who sails, not a sailor who writes.

Cheers,

John V.

[Russell]

You ask how I could lift 150 pounds 50 times in a row. I didn't. Nobody has to. Every time you bring in some chain, the load gets lighter. I pulled 102 pounds, but the only time I had to pull 102 pounds was on the very first pull. The second pull was only 99 pounds, and so on. The load gets lighter very quickly and soon it's only the 35-pound anchor plus a bit of chain.

This makes no sense, unless you happened to be anchored with ONLY 90 feet of chain in 90 feet of water with some magic anchor. Normally one would have on the order of 270+ feet, in which case you have to get 180 feet pulled in the boat before it starts getting lighter.

Anyways, I have nothing more to say on the topic. My origonal post is my opinion, any decent amount of chain then one should invest in a manual windlass at least or risk finding themself in a very difficult situation. Suggesting that large amounts of chain in deep water is no big deal I think is leading people in a direction they may not realize it is more difficult then some people present it as.

[Neil Gordon]

This makes no sense, unless you happened to be anchored with ONLY 90 feet of chain in 90 feet of water with some magic anchor. Normally one would have on the order of 270+ feet, in which case you have to get 180 feet pulled in the boat before it starts getting lighter.

But the first 180 feet is (in part) pulling horizontally. So how much weight are you lifting if you bring in chain at 4/1 scope vs. later on when it's 1/1?

[Steve Laume]

Well it is strange what threads get a strong response. Was that a pun? I am thinking I can manage the chain. There may come a time when it becomes a problem. If the rode fouls it would be a problem even if it was a line and chain combo. If I can get by with slightly less scope then that is an advantage.

When I retrieve the anchor I try to stuff the rode straight down into the chain locker. Even if it takes a bit longer to retrieve the anchor I don't have a bunch of line on deck so I can be off and sailing as soon as the anchor is pinned in place. The chain slides down into the locker much easier than my nylon does.

I am thinking I can manage the 5/16" chain for the time being. If it seems like too much in a couple of years I will either find room for a windlass on Raven or buy a bigger boat.

So how much chain is enough? Somewhere between 90 and 150' seems like it would take care of most situations. I can use the weight as far as trim is concerned although I know it is not idea to have it that far forward, Steve.

[Tom Keevil]

Steve, I'm sure you can pull your chain and anchor by hand. We installed a manual windlass which makes it easier, but did it by hand before that.

You will really appreciate a chain stopper, however. It makes a hard job relatively easy (ok, less hard), and an impossible job possible. With a stopper you can stop anytime you want to get a rest. If there is any swell in the anchorage holding a chain by hand can be more than challenging, and if you lose your grip in deep water you probably have to haul all of your chain back up (unless you didn't secure the bitter end) - not just what you had deployed initially.