How much chain can be manually lifted, comfortably?

[Steve Laume]

I thought I might start this as a new companion thread to how much chain is too much. My current working ground tackle is a 35LB CQR, 30' of 3/8" chain and 200' of 3 strand nylon. I know the CQR is oversized and I like it that way. The 3/8" chain is simply too heavy by any standard. The nylon works.

My boat currently squats in the stern a bit and there is not much I can move out of that area. My thoughts were to add a much longer 5/16" chain to my rode. Like most, I try to anchor shallow. I think 30' has been the deepest I have had to deal with thus far. That said, if I make it father down east in Maine it would be easy to find myself in a situation with 40 or 50' of water under the boat at high tide. I am sure that would be a rare situation but am I kidding myself to think that I could lift that much anchor and chain without a windlass?

I am in fairly good shape at the present but am wondering if going to a mostly chain rode pretty much dictates that you also install a windlass. The fore deck area in the vicinity of the chain locker is pretty crowded on a CD-30. That and spending the money makes me reluctant to want to install a windlass.

Inquiring minds want to know, just how much chain are any of you lifting, Steve.

[Russell]

Indeed, going mostly chain does require a windlass, even if you are young and fit. A lot of chain in deep water is simply beyond what a normal human can handle.

[John Vigor]

Steve, Eric Hiscock, the famous British round-the-worlder, said that "It is possible for a man of average strength and ability to handle a 60-pound CQR or Danforth anchor without any special gear, to get it clear over the side when letting go or to lift it in and secure it when getting under way . . ."

It sounds like heavy work to me, but I have on many occasions weighed by hand a 35-pound CQR with 5/16-inch chain in 90 feet of water.

We could all handle heavier anchors and chains if only we would add a chain pawl at the bow roller. A simple, flip-over pawl on top of the roller prevents the chain from running back out while you're hauling in and takes all of the strain of the boat rising on a swell.

With a chain pawl, or a conveniently placed patent chain stopper, it is feasible to do away with an anchor winch altogether when using a 35-pound anchor and 5/16-inch chain, particularly if you have an auxiliary engine to ease the boat to windward while you're weighing.

Cheers,

John Vigor

http://www.johnvigor.com/blog.html

[henry hey]

I know that the CQR anchors are very good. Their reputation stands proudly.

I use my Fortress FX-11 (which by Fortress' recommendations is more than enough) for my 4,000lb CD25.

If it's really blowing, I set my Bruce as a 2nd anchor.

It does help to have that light (11 lb) fortress at the end of my chain and line.

Weighing is not so terrible.

I also recall taking a charter cruise a few years back. I was sailing with friends and we were expecting a good overnight blow in close quarters. We had set a 2nd anchor on a lot of chain. I went out in the dinghy to weigh the anchor and that chain. Let me tell you that there is a reason for the windlass.

h

[paul marko]

this was part of a personal message

[Russell]

I am sorry John, reguardless of what Hiscock said or not (and I doubt he was refering to 90' depth and all chain), I in no way beleive you have once (or several times) hand over handed all chain rode in 90' of water, unless at one time in your life you were a professional body builder.

90' of chain in 20' of water? Sure, I will buy that, done it myself. But 90' of chain strait down? No way.

Granted you mention using a chain lock, in which case there is a possability, not hand over hand though. I have on occation, in my pre windlass days, use my snubber and a chain lock to pull up chain in deep water (no where near 90' and even with winch it was HARD). The process being, attach snubber as low as you can reach, other end goes to winch at mast, use the winch to move it a few feet, lock the chain, move snubber down again, etc... But in no way would I expect to hand over hand in any real depth. Heck my electric windlass clutch wont allow me to pull in chain past about 70' strait down, would destroy the motor.

Maybe you ment 90 feet of chain rather then 90 feet of water, in which caes I apologize. But in 90 of water you are talk 270 feet of chain, which at any moment you are handling 90 feet of its weight at that depth, and that is only if wind is zero and you have expert communications with the helmsman to keep zero pull on the rode (even if 200 feet of it is rope, 70' of chain strait down is insane for a normal human).

I hope you clarify what you ment, because as I read it, that is not humanly possible without a daily steroid regiment.

[Bill Michne]

There is a popular anchorage in front of the naval academy in Annapolis. On a fairly crowded weekend we were fortunate to find a large empty space and proceeded to drop the 45 lb CQR and its largely chain rode. The water in that area averages about 15 feet, but under that empty space it's about 45 feet, a fact we didn't appreciate until the anchor was down. Lacking a functional windlass at that point in time, the anchor and chain had to come up using the armstrong method. Lessons learned. Don't go out there with heavy ground tackle and no windlass. More importantly, don't ask your body to do things that it may be increasingly incapable of doing. The price of a windlass is small compared to an overexertion injury that could become a chronic debilitating condition that prematurely ends your sailing days. We now use a 2-speed manual windlass. While it's not as sexy as the electric types, it's not as expensive or as complicated to install either, and requires very little effort to use. And your back will love you for it.

[Joe CD MS 300]

I pretty sure I never had to handle chain at 90'. I have had to deal with my all 5/16" chain rode and a 35 lb. Delta when the windlass switch died two seasons back. 40-45 ft depths was probably the max I had to deal with but don't remember it being much of a problem. The bigest problem was the mess with the hands and the mud on the chain. I think 90' could be feasible for an average guy in decent shape. West Marine list 5/16 at 1.2 lb.s per foot so you have 108 lbs. at 90' Add a 35lb anchor you ae only talking about 140 lbs.

If any of you guys go to the gym just think of your standard 45lb plate. Its not really a big deal to carry one in each hand and you are only using your finger tips. Pulling 140 lbs. a few feet at a time should be doable.

[Andy Denmark]

Bill makes an excellent point. Also consider that it's not always your own earthhook that comes aboard when you weigh anchor. Some snowbird friends were anchored in the public anchorage opposite Charleston City Marina a few weeks ago and dragged a little during the night in a blow. Here's what they hoisted aboard the next morning (along with their 45 lb CQR & 50 ft of 3/8" chain): 2 Danforths, 1 Lewmar, 1 Bruce and 1 Delta. Since they had rode and chain attached it is reasonable to assume these were left behind because their former owners couldn't hoist them aboard by hand.


________
Herbal Vaporizers

[Steve Laume]

Andy, that is quite a haul of ground tackle. I guess no one is brave enough to dive in Charleston City Harbor. That mess would have been hard to retrieve even with a rope rode and a short chain, without a windlass. One advantage of having a rope, rode is that you could at least cut your losses short, literally.

I anchored in Provincetown Harbor this summer. I was outside of the mooring field but when I went to pull my anchor in the morning for an early start I was having a bear of a time. I finally pulled up enough rode to see a huge dumb bell looking iron thing wrapped around my rode! It must have been an old abandon mooring anchor. It was tuff trying to get it off my line. It made me think of how easily it could have chafed through the nylon under the right conditions.

There are no easy answers.

Has anyone mounted a windlass to a CD-30 that drops the chain into the anchor locker and still alows the use of the club footed staysail? I like the idea of a manual windlass but the choices are few and they seem to take up even more room on deck.

Boats around the 30' range seem to be in the awkward area of not enough room but heavy enough to want a windlass, Steve.

[Evergreen]

I will relate my personal experience from last summer's cruise to Maine & Nova Scotia.

We have no anchor windlass. I am not a jock but I believe I can probably pull a little more weight than the average cruiser out there. However, as the years progress I find I wish to take less chances of injury to my back.

Previous to last summer we had a 35 pound CQR on 150 foot of 5/16 chain and also a 33 lb Bruce on 40 foot of 5/16 high test chain. I considered both anchors to be undersize for worry free serious cruising. 5/16 high test chain weighs about a pound per foot. I could haul both those anchors with no trouble at all. So last spring I changed my CQR anchor to a 55 pound Rocna anchor (which is the appropriate size for a 36 foot boat - according to the Rocna charts) and 300 foot of 5/16 high test chain. Another significant point to take into consideration is that a CQR comes up relatively free of mud yet the newer style anchors (such a Rocna) often come up with a shovel full of mud adding to the weight. Anyway, we spent last summer anchoring everyday in anchorages between the Chesapeake and the Bras D'Or Lakes. Often in the north the anchorages were deeper (between 30 and 45 foot). I only used one anchor (the Rocna) and it worked like a dream.

My conclusions: In anything close to and over 30ft it is VERY difficult to haul the 55 pound anchor and all chain. At 30 feet you are talking at least 85 pounds total plus the weight of the mud. I felt like I was putting unnecessary strain on my back. However, I remain a strong proponent of a larger anchor and all chain for cruisers. Consequently, this year we will be purchasing an anchor windlass. Another bonus of having a windlass is that it frees up your hands for washing off the chain as it comes up.

Hopefully, someone will find useful, what I have leaned the hard way.

Best wishes,

[Jim Davis]

For folks with nylon rode, the cockpit winches make a powerful backup. While I don't completely agree with him, one friend uses his main halyard winch for a nylon rode. He is in his 80's, still single handing and this has him where he can watch and control the situation. For boats with chain rodes use a chain hook with a long tail to reach the cockpit. Haul the chain back to the winch, secure the chain and relead the chain hook. Slow, messy and a lot of work, but it does work. This is also the back up should the windlass fail.

I should add that with chain this can make a mess out of the gel coat on the cabin side, so try and plan ahead.

[Matt Cawthorne]

At one Cape dory get together I was on one end of a 16 boat raft that was hanging on a single anchor. Thunderstorms were a possiblility. Being cautious about anchoring I set two anchors off my starboard bow and stern. I figured that if all went bad, I could at least cut the raft loose and be reasonably secure. The wind did shift and my anchors held the raft nicely, but when it was time to leave, the Perkins was unable to break one of the anchors loose. It was dug deep into a mud bottom. I used a chain hook and a piece of line running to the halyard winch. That way I did not mess up the gelcoat. The anchor came up reasonably quickly. With a pair of such hooks and using two winches alternately, or with one hook and a pawl, you could haul up almost anything. You should consider whether you need to haul the anchor up quickly, however, because this process is unlikely to give you the speed of a windlass.

Matt

[John Vigor]

I am sorry John, reguardless of what Hiscock said or not (and I doubt he was refering to 90' depth and all chain), I in no way beleive you have once (or several times) hand over handed all chain rode in 90' of water, unless at one time in your life you were a professional body builder.

90' of chain in 20' of water? Sure, I will buy that, done it myself. But 90' of chain strait down? No way.

Granted you mention using a chain lock, in which case there is a possability, not hand over hand though. I have on occation, in my pre windlass days, use my snubber and a chain lock to pull up chain in deep water (no where near 90' and even with winch it was HARD). The process being, attach snubber as low as you can reach, other end goes to winch at mast, use the winch to move it a few feet, lock the chain, move snubber down again, etc... But in no way would I expect to hand over hand in any real depth. Heck my electric windlass clutch wont allow me to pull in chain past about 70' strait down, would destroy the motor.

Maybe you ment 90 feet of chain rather then 90 feet of water, in which caes I apologize. But in 90 of water you are talk 270 feet of chain, which at any moment you are handling 90 feet of its weight at that depth, and that is only if wind is zero and you have expert communications with the helmsman to keep zero pull on the rode (even if 200 feet of it is rope, 70' of chain strait down is insane for a normal human).

I hope you clarify what you ment, because as I read it, that is not humanly possible without a daily steroid regiment.

Dear Russell:

I don't take kindly to being called an outright liar. Despite what you may think of Eric Hiscock or me as spinners of tall tales, it is indeed possible for a man of average strength of raise a 35-pound CQR with 5/16th chain in 90 feet of water.

I have just dug out my old log of a voyage from the Indian Ocean to Fort Lauderdale in my 30-footer, Freelance. On Sunday, March 8, 1987, at 1430, I dropped anchor in James Bay, on St. Helena Isand in the South Atlantic. This is a volcanic island whose sides drop away steeply, so there is very little room to anchor in shallow water.

Finding that I was too close to other yachts already anchored, I shifted to a position off Rupert's Bay to the northeast. If you get out your chart # 57485, you'll notice a sounding off the mouth of Rupert's Bay of 15 fathoms. That's exactly where we next anchored and what was noted on the depth sounder.

Let me quote further from my book, Small Boat to Freedom:

"But the only possible anchorage was crowded, and the holding poor, so we shifted to Rupert's Bay next door and, after several tries, we found a patch of sand that gave our thirty-five-pound CQR
a firm grip in ninety feet of water."

I dropped and raised that anchor three times in 90 feet before we got it to stick. And I did it all by hand, with no help and no chain pawl. I am no body builder, just an average Joe who is not prone to instant disbelief.

I wish you a less cynical New Year.

John Vigor

http://www.johnvigor.com

[Andy Denmark]

Steve,

The general dilemna of handling ground tackle on a boat with a jib boom is but one of the many disadvantages of a jib boom. I detest the things and it would be the first thing I took off the boat if I owned her.

I think some creative engineering could locate a vertical axis windlass so the swinging room for the handle would clear everything. That's pure conjecture, though. As for stowing the chain in the forepeak locker that's a lot of weight (along with the anchor(s)) to put so far forward without affecting the seakindliness of the boat.
________
Penny stock picks