My two brothers and I just purchased 1978 CD 30 Cutter (hull 77) - love it - planning an ocean cruise next summer. I am used to sloop rigs, have never rigged for offshore cruising, so have questions about heavy weather rigging (which I dearly hope to avoid but wish to be ready for). I understand that a roller reefing jenny is frequently used alone, sometimes a staysail. What about reefing a staysail, or replacing with a storm staysail plus a trysail or double reefed main? Storm jib and trysail? Or is one down to bare poles by that time anyway? I also read about running backstays on this message board to counter the load on using a staysail or yankee alone. I cannot tell whether the concern runs to the staysail, the yankee or both. I would like to rig the running stays from the masthead fully aft so as to obtain an extra halyard and be able to remove the topping lift as well. On the other hand, I have also been advised to set the running backstays opposite the staysail stay to just aft the coach, like swept back shrouds, consequently they would be deployed only when the main was not in use, but would work well to offset the load on the staysail stay. Finally, the yankee jib. Is it advisable to have a non-furling jib? I have two 150 genoas that are somewhat heavy feeling and dull when largely reefed. For heavy weather I would prefer anyway to use the staysail on the club foot - the self tending is a great relief. Windvanes. From my perusal of the message board, monitor windvanes seem like a favorite for CDs. Is this true? Finally, finally, the table legs are missing - any ideas. In general, I would welcome any advice or suggested sources. I sail out of Peconic/Gardiner's Bay, Long Island, NY. Would be delighted to hear from anyone anytime. I am going to sail deep into December before hauling and setting to work on . . . (a long list).
matkinson@genesis.law.pace.edu
CD 30 Ocean Rig
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Jon Larson
Re: CD 30 Ocean Rig
Matthew,
I once had a chat with Andy Vavolitis at the NY boat show and asked about the inner stay. That is not a structural stay and can be removed. I infer from this that no further staying is required to support the forestay. If you notice on the larger CD's, the staysail stay is indeed backed by an additional set of lowers. When I had the insurance survey done on PERI after her shipment out here to the west coast, the surveyor, a guy with one circumnavigation under his belt and currently on another one, did recommend running back stays. I think these are to brace the mast for the staysail. I have seen one cruising CD30, from Dana Point, CA that has two Panama transits under her keel who did have running back stays rigged, they were rigged to the stern of the boat. For the sailing I do, I am not worried about this at all.
When things get really heavy with PERI, the last sail I reduce is the yankee, up to winds gusting to 50 mph, she'll handle surprisingly well with just yankee alone. I think a little furling on that yankee would make things a bit better. Without staying to balance that staysail stay, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with that as sail of last resort. I will comment that in the 50mph experience I had, a friend did sail his CD30 with just the staysail...and nothing went out of column or collapsed. I think there's a lot of safety built into these boats, and there are a lot of fractional rigs sailing the ocean that do not collapse masts, but, I'd sure have a chat with a good marine architect before I'd rely on that opinion.
Hey, have a ball with that CD30. I have VERY fond memories of Peconic Bay!
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
jon9@ix.netcom.com
I once had a chat with Andy Vavolitis at the NY boat show and asked about the inner stay. That is not a structural stay and can be removed. I infer from this that no further staying is required to support the forestay. If you notice on the larger CD's, the staysail stay is indeed backed by an additional set of lowers. When I had the insurance survey done on PERI after her shipment out here to the west coast, the surveyor, a guy with one circumnavigation under his belt and currently on another one, did recommend running back stays. I think these are to brace the mast for the staysail. I have seen one cruising CD30, from Dana Point, CA that has two Panama transits under her keel who did have running back stays rigged, they were rigged to the stern of the boat. For the sailing I do, I am not worried about this at all.
When things get really heavy with PERI, the last sail I reduce is the yankee, up to winds gusting to 50 mph, she'll handle surprisingly well with just yankee alone. I think a little furling on that yankee would make things a bit better. Without staying to balance that staysail stay, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with that as sail of last resort. I will comment that in the 50mph experience I had, a friend did sail his CD30 with just the staysail...and nothing went out of column or collapsed. I think there's a lot of safety built into these boats, and there are a lot of fractional rigs sailing the ocean that do not collapse masts, but, I'd sure have a chat with a good marine architect before I'd rely on that opinion.
Hey, have a ball with that CD30. I have VERY fond memories of Peconic Bay!
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
Matthew Atkinson wrote: My two brothers and I just purchased 1978 CD 30 Cutter (hull 77) - love it - planning an ocean cruise next summer. I am used to sloop rigs, have never rigged for offshore cruising, so have questions about heavy weather rigging (which I dearly hope to avoid but wish to be ready for). I understand that a roller reefing jenny is frequently used alone, sometimes a staysail. What about reefing a staysail, or replacing with a storm staysail plus a trysail or double reefed main? Storm jib and trysail? Or is one down to bare poles by that time anyway? I also read about running backstays on this message board to counter the load on using a staysail or yankee alone. I cannot tell whether the concern runs to the staysail, the yankee or both. I would like to rig the running stays from the masthead fully aft so as to obtain an extra halyard and be able to remove the topping lift as well. On the other hand, I have also been advised to set the running backstays opposite the staysail stay to just aft the coach, like swept back shrouds, consequently they would be deployed only when the main was not in use, but would work well to offset the load on the staysail stay. Finally, the yankee jib. Is it advisable to have a non-furling jib? I have two 150 genoas that are somewhat heavy feeling and dull when largely reefed. For heavy weather I would prefer anyway to use the staysail on the club foot - the self tending is a great relief. Windvanes. From my perusal of the message board, monitor windvanes seem like a favorite for CDs. Is this true? Finally, finally, the table legs are missing - any ideas. In general, I would welcome any advice or suggested sources. I sail out of Peconic/Gardiner's Bay, Long Island, NY. Would be delighted to hear from anyone anytime. I am going to sail deep into December before hauling and setting to work on . . . (a long list).
jon9@ix.netcom.com
-
Andrew Blight
Re: CD 30 Ocean Rig
Matthew:
I have hull #69 down in the Chesapeake, and am hoping to upgrade the rigging also for heavier weather. As I understand it from my local yard the inner stay on the CD 30 is a bit of a fake, in that it is not designed by its thickness or bracing to handle its proper cutter role of supporting a heavy weather sail. That is a pity, since it is a great sail to use in bad weather with its self tending. I am planning to upgrade the stay by a couple of sizes, put in a lever at the bottom to allow the genny to tack across when in sloop mode, and attach either running backstays or fixed backstays (though I can't really convince myself that fixed lowers can be set back far enough in the dack to have much effect without interfering with the main at times. For heavy weather work you should definitely have a heavier stay and proper bracing from the rear. It is certainly the better stay to use in a blow (lower and smaller). I talked to someone very helpful at Rig-Rite (they are on the web) and he had all the parts in mind (for $800 or so) but recommended the fixed lowers rather than runners - it would be a nuisance to be moving them around when you tack like an old gaffer. I don't see much need for roller furling on the little staysail, and it would be difficult to use with the boom. My staysail reefs nicely with two sets of reef points if you don't mind crawling out to the bow for a shower.
I too would be interested in experience with wind vanes. I recently saw a beautiful-looking german vane called the Windpilot, but have not been able to find out much about it. It certainly was a lot more elegant than the monitor, which always looks like someone put it together out of material they found in a demolition site, even if it does work reliably and well. The Cap Horn does not look so cluttered, but its single attachment tube looks like it should be vulnerable, even if it is well engineered. Any CD experience out there?
blight@med.unc.edu
I have hull #69 down in the Chesapeake, and am hoping to upgrade the rigging also for heavier weather. As I understand it from my local yard the inner stay on the CD 30 is a bit of a fake, in that it is not designed by its thickness or bracing to handle its proper cutter role of supporting a heavy weather sail. That is a pity, since it is a great sail to use in bad weather with its self tending. I am planning to upgrade the stay by a couple of sizes, put in a lever at the bottom to allow the genny to tack across when in sloop mode, and attach either running backstays or fixed backstays (though I can't really convince myself that fixed lowers can be set back far enough in the dack to have much effect without interfering with the main at times. For heavy weather work you should definitely have a heavier stay and proper bracing from the rear. It is certainly the better stay to use in a blow (lower and smaller). I talked to someone very helpful at Rig-Rite (they are on the web) and he had all the parts in mind (for $800 or so) but recommended the fixed lowers rather than runners - it would be a nuisance to be moving them around when you tack like an old gaffer. I don't see much need for roller furling on the little staysail, and it would be difficult to use with the boom. My staysail reefs nicely with two sets of reef points if you don't mind crawling out to the bow for a shower.
I too would be interested in experience with wind vanes. I recently saw a beautiful-looking german vane called the Windpilot, but have not been able to find out much about it. It certainly was a lot more elegant than the monitor, which always looks like someone put it together out of material they found in a demolition site, even if it does work reliably and well. The Cap Horn does not look so cluttered, but its single attachment tube looks like it should be vulnerable, even if it is well engineered. Any CD experience out there?
blight@med.unc.edu
-
Jonathan Erb
Re: CD 30 Ocean Rig
I have little heavy weather ocean experience in my Cape Dory 31, but it regularly blows 25 with gusts to 30 on my San Francisco Bay where I have sailed for 13 years. I expect the Cape Dory 30 is similar. Single reefed main and staysail are good for me to a steady 25. Double reef and staysail are ok to 35. I was only overpowered once with that. I went to a triple reef and a smaller storm staysail on the inner forestay and the boat sailed beautifully to weather- perfectly balanced. I am not a good judge of that wind strength, but I would guess it was maybe 35-40 knots. The winds at a nearby airport were reported as gusting to 45-50mph.
I removed my club jib because I had trouble tacking the boat in short steep seas- maybe 7 foot seas in the Ocean at the entrance to SF Bay. (It also cleared up the foredeck wonderfully.) I prefer to be able to back the staysail as it gives you more control. If you leave the boom on the jib, I would recommend setting up a line to allow you to back it to weather. With the staysail sheeted to a new track on deck right next to the cabin (as close as possible), you can flatten out the staysail- something you cannot do easily with a club jib.
Again- I don't have a lot of experience with heavy weather, just regularly strong wind in flat water. Fair winds!
jhe@slip.net
I removed my club jib because I had trouble tacking the boat in short steep seas- maybe 7 foot seas in the Ocean at the entrance to SF Bay. (It also cleared up the foredeck wonderfully.) I prefer to be able to back the staysail as it gives you more control. If you leave the boom on the jib, I would recommend setting up a line to allow you to back it to weather. With the staysail sheeted to a new track on deck right next to the cabin (as close as possible), you can flatten out the staysail- something you cannot do easily with a club jib.
Again- I don't have a lot of experience with heavy weather, just regularly strong wind in flat water. Fair winds!
jhe@slip.net
-
Jon Larson
Re: CD 30 Ocean Rig
Jonathon, good note! We sail in stuff every day out here that I'd not have typically gone out in back home.
Your comment about a way to haul the staysail clew to windward is a good one, I never did that with PERI. But, on earlier CD boats, I did back the staysail as a really comfortable way to heave to to attend to some chore or task or to just take a break on a breezy day to have something to eat and drink.
I don't believe your CD31 was designed by Alberg, so it might not work as well for you, but in the highest winds (and many afternoons on the Bay) I will sail PERI with just the yankee. PERI will even tack with just that headsail, assuming you go into the tack with enough way on and sharply enough. I can easily maintain 6 knots with just the yankee making the run back into Coyote Point Marina, there's no really great loss in speed. The one thing you don't get is the real steadying influence of more sail area, so it can get a bit rolly.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
jon9@ix.netcom.com
Your comment about a way to haul the staysail clew to windward is a good one, I never did that with PERI. But, on earlier CD boats, I did back the staysail as a really comfortable way to heave to to attend to some chore or task or to just take a break on a breezy day to have something to eat and drink.
I don't believe your CD31 was designed by Alberg, so it might not work as well for you, but in the highest winds (and many afternoons on the Bay) I will sail PERI with just the yankee. PERI will even tack with just that headsail, assuming you go into the tack with enough way on and sharply enough. I can easily maintain 6 knots with just the yankee making the run back into Coyote Point Marina, there's no really great loss in speed. The one thing you don't get is the real steadying influence of more sail area, so it can get a bit rolly.
Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay
Jonathan Erb wrote: I have little heavy weather ocean experience in my Cape Dory 31, but it regularly blows 25 with gusts to 30 on my San Francisco Bay where I have sailed for 13 years. I expect the Cape Dory 30 is similar. Single reefed main and staysail are good for me to a steady 25. Double reef and staysail are ok to 35. I was only overpowered once with that. I went to a triple reef and a smaller storm staysail on the inner forestay and the boat sailed beautifully to weather- perfectly balanced. I am not a good judge of that wind strength, but I would guess it was maybe 35-40 knots. The winds at a nearby airport were reported as gusting to 45-50mph.
I removed my club jib because I had trouble tacking the boat in short steep seas- maybe 7 foot seas in the Ocean at the entrance to SF Bay. (It also cleared up the foredeck wonderfully.) I prefer to be able to back the staysail as it gives you more control. If you leave the boom on the jib, I would recommend setting up a line to allow you to back it to weather. With the staysail sheeted to a new track on deck right next to the cabin (as close as possible), you can flatten out the staysail- something you cannot do easily with a club jib.
Again- I don't have a lot of experience with heavy weather, just regularly strong wind in flat water. Fair winds!
jon9@ix.netcom.com