How much is too much chain?

[lubeckmaine]

I have 275 ft of 5/16" chain in the chain locker and a 45 lb CQR in a CD 36. Could 300 lbs of chain be contributing to my downward slanting water line. It replaced 18' of 3/8" chain and and 175' of 5/8" rode, which I've also kept in the locker. Am I hoarding? The 5/16" was being tossed by a larger boat when I happened to be tied up there, so, while serving myself, I was doing him a favor disposing his perfectly good chain, which he was replacing. Couldn't pass it up. Can't cut it up either, just in case. Help? How does this alter the sailing characteristics?

[Russell]

The chain is most certainly contributing to your off trim and it will certainly change sailing performance. This is a tremendous amount of weight in the extream end of the boat.

I had 375' total of chain forward and about 60' aft on my boat. Over time, since I spend about 95% of time at anchor each year, my first 100' of chain got very rusty (I had 300' on primary and 75' on secondary forward). So this season I cut off about 75' then end for ended my chain and spliced on 100' of rode. The difference this made was huge in sailing. Less hobby horsing and less stalling when sailing to windward. Which makes sense of course. The boat sails far better with less weight in the extreams of the boat.

That said, I am a strong advocate of carrying enough chain on your primary anchor to anchor will chain only in the deepet anchorage you expect to use. Line is nice for a second or third anchcor, but unacceptable for a primary except in extream cases. Note I am not talking lunch hook, I am talk ground tackle to take your through days of nasty wind. No boat who ventures beyond a day sail from home port should be without serious ground tackle.

I have reduced my primary chain to 200', my secondary is still 75 which I will reduce to 40', my stern I will also reduce to 40'. You can see in the archives that I am a real advocate of all chain, and I still am. But after a few years or cruising I see what I really use in extream cases, and I see the under sail performance.

A CD36 has poor midship storage, so weight tends to be focused in the ends, not good, especially considering the overhangs. There is a balance issue, do you want to dive into the waves and stall or sail over them?

A good anchor by the way allows you to sit on shorter scope. You can go from a 35 to a 45 and sit at ease on shorter scope, and reduce the total weight needed in chain. My old CQR I always set at 5:1 and in bad holding 7:1 on all chain. My new Rocna I set at 3:1 even in bad holding and sleep sound, in good holding I even set it at 2:1 if crowded. I have dived many dozens of times on both and feel good about this choice. Note I think the behavior of the Rocna sales people online is despicable, but its a good anchor (and the manson supreme equally as good). I hate to endorse their product, but I can honestly say I was only comfortable getting rid of chain weight after switching to this anchor. Keep in mind I am not a weekender, I live on my anchor and know it well in any condition you can imagine.

[tmsc]

Russell,

I don't want to high jack this thread, but I am curious if you tried any other plow style anchor besides the CQR before moving to the Rocna or Manson.

[Greg Kozlowski]

We carry about 300ft of 5/16 hightest with a 45lb Plow as the primary and a 15K Bruce with about 40ft 3/8 chain and about 300ft of 5/8 rope as the secondary. Forward aft trim is fine, but we're a cruising boat and carry quite a bit aft in the lockers as well, including a 4 man liferaft, 5 batteries, stern anchor, windbugger , outboard etc.

For what it's worth, if you get rid of the bottom shelves in the anchor locker, you can get the chain somewhat lower which helps.
Also, try rearranging the stowage on board to rebalance the boat better before considering less chain.

[seadog6532]

Lets talk about the smaller boats a bit.

We need to get more chain on Arianna and I'm wondering how much I will really need. I have never anchored in more than 25 feet and wonder if I really need more than 150-200 feet of chain, if that much. I have a 22lb claw on the roller with another 22lb claw, and 16 and 22lb Danforths on hand. I have been thinking about getting a Rocna, but don't know how big I need for a CD30K. I'm planning on setting up a permanent stern anchor with chain and line rode and having a second rode on the bow but may not keep the anchor attached to the second rode to save weight.

My thinking on a little shorter chain is that if I have enough chain to keep all chain on the bottom and a little line going from the boat I will have a little stretch from the line. Is this good thinking? I know the line has zero protection from coral and will keep that in mind when I anchor.

Mark and Anna of Arianna CD30K #112

[Russell]

Russell,

I don't want to high jack this thread, but I am curious if you tried any other plow style anchor besides the CQR before moving to the Rocna or Manson.

Lee, the anchors I currently own are a Delta, CQR, Fortress, Bruce and the Rocna. So I have tried a Delta, which came with the boat and I origonally replaced with the CQR. The setting and holding ability of the Rocna I have to admit is far better then any anchor I have use, though the Fortress is up there as well, I would not trust it in wind shifts or any bottom other then sand or mud. As an example, I have anchored in Great Harbour, Jost van Dyke, BVI dozens of times, notoriously poor holding. With my other anchors it always took several tries to set, when I bought the Rocna it never took more then one try. Likewise here on the Hamilton side of the bay in Bequia, notoriously bad holding and in the half a dozen times I have anchored here, this is the first time I set without dragging. These new generation anchors are more then just hype, they really work as claimed. In good sandy bottom I have rode out 30 knot winds on 2:1 scope without dragging.

[Russell]

We carry about 300ft of 5/16 hightest with a 45lb Plow as the primary and a 15K Bruce with about 40ft 3/8 chain and about 300ft of 5/8 rope as the secondary. Forward aft trim is fine, but we're a cruising boat and carry quite a bit aft in the lockers as well, including a 4 man liferaft, 5 batteries, stern anchor, windbugger , outboard etc.

For what it's worth, if you get rid of the bottom shelves in the anchor locker, you can get the chain somewhat lower which helps.
Also, try rearranging the stowage on board to rebalance the boat better before considering less chain.

Trim is more a visual annoyance then anything. My boat had perfect trim with all that weight forward, now she squats a bit after tossing some chain, but sails better when going to windward in a steep sea since she is now more bouant in the bow.

[Greg Kozlowski]

Russell,

Although Sherpa was squatting a bit also for a long time, she is fairly balanced these days primarily because I managed to get rid of a lot of stuff and changed the stowage to get it just right.

A bit of squat is actually not a bad thing, especially if you're going to find yourself surfing down big waves, running downwind in storm conditions. Bow heavy, on the contrary, should be avoided I think as there then is a greater possibility of her tripping over her bow in the troughs.

[Dalton]

Russel:

Which Rocna did you get? the 20kg/44lbs?
I'll be adding a second bow anchor eventually and your experience convinces me it should be the Rocna.

Thanks:

Greg

[Russell]

Yes, I got the 20kg. I think there is another CD36 on this board who is using a 25kg rocna! I cant remember who though? I think its Evergreen. They are expensive anchors, but ultimately cheap insurance.

[Duncan]

... My thinking on a little shorter chain is that if I have enough chain to keep all chain on the bottom and a little line going from the boat I will have a little stretch from the line. Is this good thinking?...

This sort of setup has worked well for me in similar conditions. I've used a claw with 60 feet of 3/8 chain, and then the nylon. It has been a solid setup 99% of the time.

The problem, though, is the other 1%. When I've wanted extra scope, I've ended up letting out a LOT of nylon. It's held very well, in rough conditions (including a 65 knot microburst last summer!), but I have to leave lots of room.

I'm thinking maybe 125 feet of 5/16ths chain spliced into the nylon? This would give me normal 3:1 chain scope in up to 40 feet, and then the nylon would be the backup for storms or deep water.

ps. I've heard Danforths don't reset well on more than one or two fathoms of chain. I think it's because they set better when they are lifted and that trips them in. I only use mine for backup/lunch hook.

[lubeckmaine]

Russell, I think you're right about the stalling, which I noticed when we were beating to windward from Falmouth, Maine to Riviera Beach where we're now doing some topside painting before shipping out to the Bahamas in the next few weeks. An Island Packet in the marina here says he gets his scope with a "bucket", if I remember correctly, weight added to the rode of his CQR. I don't like this idea: something else for me to find in an already overloaded boat. Talk about squat. With five crew and a lot of stuff. I like the concept of less scope with an improved anchor design. though I don.t think old hands would agree. That's why I jumped on the opportunity. I am thinking though to put some of the chain in the lazarette to use with a folding fisherman I stow there. But I just can't get my nerve up to shorten the 275, which I think is an ideal length. I'd like to dump more stuff, maybe not fill the forward water tank. Something. I have a lot of tools forward. The lazarette remains relatively empty since I'm installing Cape Horn steering in stages, having booted the propane to the rail. I need fatter helmsman.

[lubeckmaine]

Greg, at the risk of jacking the thread again just a bit, but we are talking about weight distribution, where are these five batteries? In the starboard locker, Diapensia has a house and start battery, a hot water heater, and bilge pump. I don't see room for anymore batts, of which I'd like to have one more house. Incidentally, Russell, in terms of forward and aft trim, I did notice an improvement in level waterline with two persons in the cockpit, which is, more often than not, a common configuration...despite the stalling memories, frustrating because I wanted to point higher.....

[Paul D.]

Someone asked how much chain does one really need. I will chime in here saying I agree to think about the anchorages you are going to use and plan from there. I went from six foot of chain to 50' with 100' nylon and never have dragged even in some good wind. We have a 35lb CQR and no windlass but at this point I don't mind the work.

Since my anchoring is most always done in <20' I let out the 50' then maybe another 30-50' and do not go anywhere. We have an automatic snubber too. This method does require keeping an eye on the splice and thimble but i did that myself and the pin is moused properly.

Since our 33 does sit an trifle down by the stern I have thought of adding a bit more chain, maybe to the secondary anchor, but I am quite happy with her sailing performance, even with original sails, so I have not added the weight yet. It takes three of us crew to stand on the bow to bring her on the waterline. What is a sailor to do!

So I am a fan of the combined chain/line method.

Paul

[Greg Kozlowski]

Diapensia,

Don't know what year your CD36 is, but in our 1979 model the starboard seat locker holds a hotwater tank, 2 group 27 house batts and a smaller cranking bat. In the port seat locker we have the fuel tank tucked in the forward corner, a 4 man lifeliferaft mounted in a bracket to the hull, an AB fridge unit and 2 group 27 house batteries.

FWIW, I do think that getting good sailing ability out of the CD is more about balanced weight distribution throughout the boat rather than just keeping weight out of the bow. In our case, though we are guite loaded at the ends, a lot of our weight is midship as well. All four water tanks are midship - 2 in the bilge and 2 under the settees port and starboard. There is also quite a bit of space outboard of the settees backrests, especially on the port side which was originally designed as a pull out double berth which we have converted to storage. Another place that we use as storage is the hanging locker opposite the head, which has the added benefit of balancing out the bit of a list to port the CD36 has.

All in all, even distribution of weight throughout the boat is the key, I think. If you play around with it, I don't think the weight of the chain up front should be a problem.