Steering a 28 in reverse

[Troy Scott]

Neil,

Hmmmm..., I appreciate your point of view, and I really admire sailors who have learned to use just the stuff that came with the boat to maneuver in tight places. However, in my years of watching and learning from sailors, I never cease to be amazed at the problem solving they/we come up with. For example: mainsail reefing has, over the years evolved from a noisy, wild and crazy affair to something quite civilized. And headsail furling...., almost all of us have adopted neat alternatives. When it comes to maneuvering my boat in a tight marina around lots of other expensive boats, I want my actions to inspire confidence, not panic. The most embarrassing moments for me used to be when, years ago, they would see me coming and the dockmaster would drop what he was doing and run to help while other boat owners would prepare to fend off. I hope that NEVER happens again. These days I always caution the folks sailing with me to try to be prepared, cool and collected when entering and maneuvering in the marina. When sailing alone I try to plan ahead in order to avoid running up and down the deck during docking maneuvers, which is dangerous and looks panicky. To facilitate this, I will consider any device that will help while not detracting from the boat. I don't think it's unworthy of a sailor to try new things as long as he/she uses good judgement. It IS bad to junk up a boat with gadgetry that might help in one area but detracts from another. There is always a better way. Let's not cease to evolve.

Now, the philosophy aside, I'm thinking of a system that might help as much as the big, ugly, hole-through-the-boat bow thrusters, without the big ugly hole. Most of us know about modern less-obtrusive air-conditioning systems that send higher pressure air through smaller outlets. I wonder if this thinking couldn't be applied to maneuvering jets. There could be a door that closes over the jet when it's not blowing. There is no reason why the intake has to be opposite the jet. This could all be so much better. Maybe I should develop this. OK folks, if there was a system that would dramatically improve your ability to maneuver in tight spots while not otherwise detracting from the boat, would you buy it?

[SPIBob]

Troy,

Just free wheeling here, so to speak, but how about an electric trolling motor like device that could be quickly clamped to or removed from the bow sprit (or as Fred Bingham of Fenix more accurately calls it, the "bow plank") as a portable bowthruster. This could be attached just before or removed just after marina maneuvering. One would need cockpit control of direction and speed of prop spin.

Just a thought. Bob

[Troy Scott]

Bob,

I have seen the device you describe for sale already. I haven't seen it for a long time though, so maybe it didn't catch on.

I would rather have a system that's always ready, completely unobtrusive, no effect on sailing performance, and not expensive. Probably a pipe dream......

[Steve Laume]

If you were sneaky, willing to cheat and wanted to win no matter what, you might use such a device to gain some lateral movement to windward. The system you are talking about would seem like a pump and some nozzles. A wash down feature could be incorporated in for extra value. Sounds pretty cool but I wouldn't spend the money, Steve.

[Troy Scott]

Steve,

I see you sail a CD30. Do you singlehand a lot? If you were sailing a 36, sailing alone into a tight marina in a crosswind with a different cross current with lots of experienced sailors watching you..., would you be more inclined to spend the money?

The washdown feature is a great idea!

[fenixrises]

Hi all,

Now is that Fred Bingham, Bruce Bingham's(of "Flicka" design fame) brother? And what is he doing using my boat's name? Fenix is rather unique and I didn't expect to see another.

Or is it really me?

Prop walk I was told is caused by the angle of the prop shaft. No angle, no walk. Therefore Westsail 32s back up quite straight. Got this from a retired aircraft engineer type.

A line off the stern quarter is a good remedy to cure the "serious design flaw" and by far the cheapest. If she won't go where you want her to, at least keep her from not going where you don't want her to. That is if it is "Politically Correct" to do so.

I just experienced this recently. "Ziggy" and his wife wanted to haul thier HR39 here in Richard's Bay. All was set. I was aboard to lend a hand if needed. Zig told us all that the boat would be manuvered astern out of the slip. The stern would go to port allowing the bow to swing to strb.

An experienced sailor was given charge of the dock line to restrain the bow. I innocently asked Ziggy if his boat backed to strb or port. I could tell by his lack of answer that he didn't really know. But he assured me that the stern was going to port.

There was a 12-15 knot cross wind on the port side. So as soon as the boat got out into the wind the stern immediatly swung to strb, opposite of the "Plan". Since there was plenty of room I suggested to Zig that he just let the boat go where it was going.

Zig was adament. The reason the stern didn't go where it was instructed was the fault of the dockside line handler. And had nothing to do with the fact that the prop walk and the wind took the stern where it wanted to go.

Anyways the boat was manuvered to the slipway with no problem and hauled without a hitch.

Practice makes it easier and sometimes you just gotta go with it.

I think Vetus makes a small scale bow thruster. Its just pumps water to P or S as required, using a pair of 1 1/2" ~ 2" discharges.

BTW Fenix steers astern quite well. But of course she must be moving fast enought to have water flow over the rudder. Initially would be quite impossible to turn the bow from the stern with no boat speed. And for sure not going to turn the bow up into a strong cross wind, unless I do a bit of backing and filling.

Take care,
Fred "The FeNIX" Bickum

[SPIBob]

My apologies to Captain Bickum of the good ship FeNIX for my surname gaffe. At least I had you confused with good company!

Bob

[The Patriot]

... what is he doing using my boat's name? Fenix is rather unique and I didn't expect to see anotherFred "The FeNIX" Bickum

To my surprise I encountered another single-hander on a yacht named "Fenix" in June in Saint George's, Bermuda. Small world?

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

How much of a jet would be required to effectively move the bow of a Cape Dory 36? Would you describe it in "volume @ X psi" or "foot pounds"? Am I dreaming to think a washdown pump could be the power source for such a jet?

[Steve Laume]

I have a 5 HP high pressure pump for irrigating my nursery. We have a 2"fire hose that we sometimes hook up to the thing. I think it is supposed to put out something like 60 PSI. It is strong enough that my son could lean way into it while directing the stream back into the pond. I of course had to do what any fun loving father would have done, TURN OFF THE WATER!!! He fell straight in head first with cell phone in pocket. It was still pretty funny and he got a free upgrade. I know a 2" nozzle with 60 PSI would move your bow around, Steve.

[Troy Scott]

Steve,

Excellent information! Now I wonder if anybody has similar experience with something even smaller that they think would work as a thruster. I'd like this thing to be just big enough, but not ridiculous like the ones that spin the megayachts in their own length at incredible rates. It would be unseemly to call attention to ourselves......

Hmmmm..., I guess if we had to we could resort to the Batman Method: Fire a hook and line at whatever sturdy object looks handy.....

I still think about the Hinckley Picnic Boat that would "hover" by the dock with no lines attached, waiting for the master's return. Cool!

[Oswego John]

Hi Troy,

I've been reading this thread with interest. I guess that my poor old tired brain was out to lunch. Then it occured to me that I remembered we had bow thrusters of a sort on one of our boats, years ago. Deja Vu all over again, as Yogi says.

We had an old wooden hulled work boat, twenty four or something feet long. It was powered by a six cylinder Chrysler Crown gas engine. Yeah, I know, a stinkpot. There weren't many sloop rigged work boats in the harbour as I recall.

We had a real Rube Goldberg, poor boy's hookup on the thruster. This was back in the 1950s so I'm a little rusty on the details. We had a belt driven power takeoff on the engine for a water pump to hose down mushrooms and chain after we'd pull a mooring. We also has a either/or, two way valve like you have on a backhoe control. The off position fed a hose to another through-hull fitting to discharge a pressure relief valve

On either side of the bow was a mushroom type through-hull fitting, maybe 1" or 1 1/4". One position of the valve fed the port thruster, the other position fed the stb'd. You could get some extra water pressure with the tranny in neutral and rev the engine. (Needless to emphasize that the tranny must be in neutral )

There was some control of the stern with prop walk at a fast idle either in foreward or reverse. Yeah, it was tricky and you had to pay attention to what you were doing, but it was doable. Maybe not a 100% efficient, but better than nothing. Home made and the price was right.

Strictly KISS.
O J

[Troy Scott]

John,

Thanks. I probably won't add this "extra project" to my CD36 until later, after she's been in the water for a while, if at all. But it's good to learn that my "crazy idea" isn't so crazy after all. I've just always thought that this bow-thruster business doesn't need to be nearly as complicated as it usually is. I think a nice addition to what you've described wold be a "joystick" control that would regulate the four jets. We probably wouldn't need a pressure relief valve, because in "neutral", all four jets would blow the same amount. Moving the stick, or ROTATING it, would vary the volume to the four jets. Of course, if only ONE jet is expected to blow at any one time, the single pump could be even smaller.

Now here's a thought WRT design and practicality: I wonder if the pump or the control system would be the relatively more expensive component. If there exists a powerful enough and cheap enough pump, a guy could just buy four (one for each jet) and drastically simplify the control system, which could then consist of just four push-buttons. With a little practice, a guy (or a girl!) could learn to control the boat just fine. Thoughts?

[Neil Gordon]

After reading this thread I'm feeling much better.
It's not just my lack of experience...

it IS tricky to maneuver in reverse.

I came across the following method that helped me a little

The guy is on a trawler not a CD but it is a single screw and the physics are similar.

http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/360turns.htm

John

Two points that are raised in the article you point to: (i) practice really helps and (ii) if there's wind or current, the boat will drift while you're trying to turn.

Much of the first point is that you get to know your boat. I'll leave it to the physics majors to explain why, but I've noticed that if the conditions are the same as last time, my boat reacts the same as last time. With enough practice, you create a catalog in your head of the boat's different reactions.

Point two is important if you have a full keel. While you try to turn the boat, she will drift in wind and current. Current will affect the whole boat the same way but wind had a different effect. Because of the full keel, the stern has more resistance through the water than the bow does. So while you're trying to turn the bow one way, the water is holding the stern and the bow falls off downwind. This may or may not help your turn. Little motor vs. big wind, the wind will win.