I have just become the owner of CD27#51 (1977) and will be sailing singlehanded most of the time. I want to add a new headsail, roller furler and tiller autopilot. I would very much appreciate any general advice for new owners and specifically for the new toys.
AQUANELL-CD27 Dunedin FL
bbbob@gte.net
Purchase of headsail, furler and tiller autopilot for CD27
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Neil Gordon
Re: Purchase of headsail, furler and tiller autopilot for CD
</LI>
I've had flawless results with a CDI furler and have never heard anyone complain about one.
As for autopilot... I singlehand on occasion... and prefer that the boat not leave me in its wake. So I don't use it when I'm forward raising or lowering sails. Just head into the wind and let the boat's momentum keep it that way as the main goes up/down.
Good luck with the new boat!!!
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
I've had flawless results with a CDI furler and have never heard anyone complain about one.
As for autopilot... I singlehand on occasion... and prefer that the boat not leave me in its wake. So I don't use it when I'm forward raising or lowering sails. Just head into the wind and let the boat's momentum keep it that way as the main goes up/down.
Good luck with the new boat!!!
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
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Bill Goldsmith
Re: Purchase of headsail, furler and tiller autopilot for CD
</LI>
Bob:
Congratulations on your "new" boat!! I'm sure you will be very pleased with her performance.
My 27 came to me with a Harken Unit 0 which has been very reliable.
As far as an autopilot while singlehanding I echo Neil Gordon's comments about the dangers of autopilot use if you're alone, especially running up to the foredeck, mast, etc.
Having said that, they are great for long passages on certain points of sail, especially if you need to run down to the head, put up coffee, etc. Also on long motoring runs thay are a great convenience. I installed an Autohelm 2000+ on my 27 which is great. I have interfaced it with a Garmin GPS 48. However, the interface is not a sailing tool (IMHO). There are too many variables. For long singlehanded passages a windvane steering system would be preferable under sail.
Best of luck on your upgrades.
Bill Goldsmith
CD27
Second Chance
goldy@bestweb.net
Bob:
Congratulations on your "new" boat!! I'm sure you will be very pleased with her performance.
My 27 came to me with a Harken Unit 0 which has been very reliable.
As far as an autopilot while singlehanding I echo Neil Gordon's comments about the dangers of autopilot use if you're alone, especially running up to the foredeck, mast, etc.
Having said that, they are great for long passages on certain points of sail, especially if you need to run down to the head, put up coffee, etc. Also on long motoring runs thay are a great convenience. I installed an Autohelm 2000+ on my 27 which is great. I have interfaced it with a Garmin GPS 48. However, the interface is not a sailing tool (IMHO). There are too many variables. For long singlehanded passages a windvane steering system would be preferable under sail.
Best of luck on your upgrades.
Bill Goldsmith
CD27
Second Chance
I have just become the owner of CD27#51 (1977) and will be sailing singlehanded most of the time. I want to add a new headsail, roller furler and tiller autopilot. I would very much appreciate any general advice for new owners and specifically for the new toys.
AQUANELL-CD27 Dunedin FL
goldy@bestweb.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Hey, Bill! about the GPS interface....
</LI>
Bill,
I was wondering why you stated that you didn't feel the GPS interface was a "sailing tool" to be used with the AutoHelm? I'm going to install a AutoHelm 4000+ wheelpilot on Hanalei this spring, and I intend to connect it to my Garmin GPS45XL (handheld, temporary connection as I won't use the GPS all the time). From what I can glean from the autopilot owners' manual, the GPS interface will do a number of things, including: showing cross track error to mark, distance to go, allow the autopilot to steer to a waypoint or Lat/Long position and a whole lot of other things. I was just wondering what you are thinking...thanks
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD_30
Bill,
I was wondering why you stated that you didn't feel the GPS interface was a "sailing tool" to be used with the AutoHelm? I'm going to install a AutoHelm 4000+ wheelpilot on Hanalei this spring, and I intend to connect it to my Garmin GPS45XL (handheld, temporary connection as I won't use the GPS all the time). From what I can glean from the autopilot owners' manual, the GPS interface will do a number of things, including: showing cross track error to mark, distance to go, allow the autopilot to steer to a waypoint or Lat/Long position and a whole lot of other things. I was just wondering what you are thinking...thanks
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD_30
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Bill Goldsmith
Re: Hey, Bill! about the GPS interface....
</LI>
Dave:
There's alot on this board about "hooking up" the equipment--it will be great to have a dialogue here about the seamanship issues surrounding its use!!
In the two seasons I have had my CD, I have tried to use the Autohelm under sail numerous times, and find that, even with the auto sea state function, the darn thing steers "S's" all day. Where I sail (on the Hudson River around Croton Point) the wind direction and speed is quite shifty. Where the direction is shifty, the drawbacks of relying on the Autohelm are apparent--making numerous course corrections on the unit is necessary--it's easier to just hold the tiller. There's no better compensator for wind speed and direction than the old gray matter!!
Even where direction is not as shifty, I find that changes in wind speed combined with slight weather helm have the Autohelm overcorrecting alot of the time, once again sailing "S's". The auto sea state does reduce this over time, but not to nil. I have found it easier and more pleasurable to just sail the boat the old fashioned way most of the time.
With the interface, an additional factor is introduced. Assume there's no wind direction change or wind speed change, but there is a current. In a current, sailing a simple Autohelm course will *roughly* keep the same apparent wind direction. For example you are sailing 270 and the wind is out of the North, you are on a beam reach. As long as your autohelm keeps you on 270 and the wind is constant you remain on a beam reach, regardless of the current. However assume you are sailing 270, wind out of the North, with the interface set to point B dead ahead. However, there is a current with a set of 360 and a drift of 3 knots. Eventually you will be on a broad reach and without care, you will jibe.
For these reasons I have used the interface sparingly under sail. I suppose if I use it at all, it is still a "sailing tool," but it requires even more oversight and monitoring than just using the Autohelm under sail. There are certainly times under sail where a third hand come in handy, and the interface will, indeed, help you judge the set and drift of the current. But I still think I will end up using it much more when motoring (such as the long trip down around the Battery when starting a cruise on the Sound).
Any further ideas, (such as what I am doing wrong!!!!) will be welcome!!!!
Bill Goldsmith
CD27
Second Chance
Bill, Setting the interface, you are now no longer sailing, for instance, 270. You are now sailing to point B.
goldy@bestweb.net
Dave:
There's alot on this board about "hooking up" the equipment--it will be great to have a dialogue here about the seamanship issues surrounding its use!!
In the two seasons I have had my CD, I have tried to use the Autohelm under sail numerous times, and find that, even with the auto sea state function, the darn thing steers "S's" all day. Where I sail (on the Hudson River around Croton Point) the wind direction and speed is quite shifty. Where the direction is shifty, the drawbacks of relying on the Autohelm are apparent--making numerous course corrections on the unit is necessary--it's easier to just hold the tiller. There's no better compensator for wind speed and direction than the old gray matter!!
Even where direction is not as shifty, I find that changes in wind speed combined with slight weather helm have the Autohelm overcorrecting alot of the time, once again sailing "S's". The auto sea state does reduce this over time, but not to nil. I have found it easier and more pleasurable to just sail the boat the old fashioned way most of the time.
With the interface, an additional factor is introduced. Assume there's no wind direction change or wind speed change, but there is a current. In a current, sailing a simple Autohelm course will *roughly* keep the same apparent wind direction. For example you are sailing 270 and the wind is out of the North, you are on a beam reach. As long as your autohelm keeps you on 270 and the wind is constant you remain on a beam reach, regardless of the current. However assume you are sailing 270, wind out of the North, with the interface set to point B dead ahead. However, there is a current with a set of 360 and a drift of 3 knots. Eventually you will be on a broad reach and without care, you will jibe.
For these reasons I have used the interface sparingly under sail. I suppose if I use it at all, it is still a "sailing tool," but it requires even more oversight and monitoring than just using the Autohelm under sail. There are certainly times under sail where a third hand come in handy, and the interface will, indeed, help you judge the set and drift of the current. But I still think I will end up using it much more when motoring (such as the long trip down around the Battery when starting a cruise on the Sound).
Any further ideas, (such as what I am doing wrong!!!!) will be welcome!!!!
Bill Goldsmith
CD27
Second Chance
Bill, Setting the interface, you are now no longer sailing, for instance, 270. You are now sailing to point B.
I was wondering why you stated that you didn't feel the GPS interface was a "sailing tool" to be used with the AutoHelm? I'm going to install a AutoHelm 4000+ wheelpilot on Hanalei this spring, and I intend to connect it to my Garmin GPS45XL (handheld, temporary connection as I won't use the GPS all the time). From what I can glean from the autopilot owners' manual, the GPS interface will do a number of things, including: showing cross track error to mark, distance to go, allow the autopilot to steer to a waypoint or Lat/Long position and a whole lot of other things. I was just wondering what you are thinking...thanks
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD_30
goldy@bestweb.net
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Don Carr
Re: Purchase of headsail, furler and tiller autopilot for CD
</LI>
Second, I singlehand frequently now on my CD 25 and find that if I've hanked the jib prior to leaving port, just letting her head up works fine for the 3-5 minutes it takes to raise the main and jib. Even if you go to vane self steering it won't work until you've fully trimmed and balanced the boat...kind of an interlocking safety system there.
Third, IMHO on autopilots...consider the additional power consumption and additional cost of fortifying your electrical system to support said autopilot. I am not a fan of autopilots. Just conservative I guess.
Fourth, having said all of the above I would invest in roller furling, wind vane steering, sail handling hardware back to the cockpit ( 2 additional winches on the coach top, lead blocks at the base of the mast, single line reefing, rope clutches) so you never have to venture to the foredeck unless there is a problem.
Most of my opinions on autopilots vs wind steering come from discussions on two transat sailors I know. It seems that autopilots are the first piece of gear that breaks. Although I am no where near a transat sailor, I have sailed on boat with autopilot and vane steering and I can tell you; once set, I have a lot more confidence in the vane than a fragile piece of elctronics. For after all didn't we buy into the Cape Dory "traditional" boat
carrd48@netzero.net
Bob; Just my $.02 worth. First if your headsail is in reasonable shape, work with a loft to have the foam luff conversion made for the roller furling system you buy. It may save you a couple of bucks and do well for you for a couple of seasons.I have just become the owner of CD27#51 (1977) and will be sailing singlehanded most of the time. I want to add a new headsail, roller furler and tiller autopilot. I would very much appreciate any general advice for new owners and specifically for the new toys.
AQUANELL-CD27 Dunedin FL
Second, I singlehand frequently now on my CD 25 and find that if I've hanked the jib prior to leaving port, just letting her head up works fine for the 3-5 minutes it takes to raise the main and jib. Even if you go to vane self steering it won't work until you've fully trimmed and balanced the boat...kind of an interlocking safety system there.
Third, IMHO on autopilots...consider the additional power consumption and additional cost of fortifying your electrical system to support said autopilot. I am not a fan of autopilots. Just conservative I guess.
Fourth, having said all of the above I would invest in roller furling, wind vane steering, sail handling hardware back to the cockpit ( 2 additional winches on the coach top, lead blocks at the base of the mast, single line reefing, rope clutches) so you never have to venture to the foredeck unless there is a problem.
Most of my opinions on autopilots vs wind steering come from discussions on two transat sailors I know. It seems that autopilots are the first piece of gear that breaks. Although I am no where near a transat sailor, I have sailed on boat with autopilot and vane steering and I can tell you; once set, I have a lot more confidence in the vane than a fragile piece of elctronics. For after all didn't we buy into the Cape Dory "traditional" boat
carrd48@netzero.net
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john churchill
Re: Purchase of headsail, furler and tiller autopilot for CD
</LI>
i am also a singlehander on my cd26. i have a harken furler, model 0 that has been flawless except one dock collision which it survived. whether or not a furler is right for you depends on your sailing plans. for daysailing they are great- pull the string and away you go, put her to bed quick too. for extended cruising they are a mixed blessing. sail shape when reefed is poor, despite foam, etc. and the big light genny now has the most vulnerable and indispensible part, the clew, exposed to wind it was not designed to handle. the answer then is to change to a smaller jib, which is tough, especially alone when the thing comes out of the foil and tries to head overboard. i dunked my storm jib in 30 knots offshore and while i rapidly recovered, i would not count on it being easy the next time. i think that a hank on system on a single headsail boat makes a lot more sense in those circumstances. use the money you save to upgrade your sail inventory.
i have an aries vane and both a autohelm and navico tiller mount autopilot aboard. i use them all, the vane teaches me to balance the boat and steers better to windward than i can. does not sleep, eat, barf or complain. useless in light air, especially downwind. unless you are planning long passages (like all day) probably not worth buying as they are expensive, look like hell, and weigh a ton sitting right on the stern. each autopilot has its advantages, but mine are older models and the more recent ones are different. they are very convenient, quick to set and great in light air and under power. i view the vane and autopilot as complementary systems. if i had only one for most all sailing, i would choose the autopilot. on the other hand, going offshore, i would rather leave the liferaft home than do without my vane.
falling overboard-i always use my harness if i am not easy swimming distance to a buoy or standing depth water, always at night or in anything but fair weather. singlehanded or with my inexperienced wife as crew, i assume that if i go overboard i will die. that includes going overboard with my harness still attached to the boat, as it is not uncommon to get drowned by being dragged under by the boat's forward speed. it is a risk that i am willing to accept as i feel that i can stack the deck in my favor thru safe practices. i used to fear going to the foredeck, especially when it got a little rough. i remember thinking at one point "it's too rough to reef". experience has largely dispelled that fear. going to the foredeck when it is rough is not enjoyable but is not excessively risky.
i will get off my soapbox now.
john
jchurchill@erols.com
i am also a singlehander on my cd26. i have a harken furler, model 0 that has been flawless except one dock collision which it survived. whether or not a furler is right for you depends on your sailing plans. for daysailing they are great- pull the string and away you go, put her to bed quick too. for extended cruising they are a mixed blessing. sail shape when reefed is poor, despite foam, etc. and the big light genny now has the most vulnerable and indispensible part, the clew, exposed to wind it was not designed to handle. the answer then is to change to a smaller jib, which is tough, especially alone when the thing comes out of the foil and tries to head overboard. i dunked my storm jib in 30 knots offshore and while i rapidly recovered, i would not count on it being easy the next time. i think that a hank on system on a single headsail boat makes a lot more sense in those circumstances. use the money you save to upgrade your sail inventory.
i have an aries vane and both a autohelm and navico tiller mount autopilot aboard. i use them all, the vane teaches me to balance the boat and steers better to windward than i can. does not sleep, eat, barf or complain. useless in light air, especially downwind. unless you are planning long passages (like all day) probably not worth buying as they are expensive, look like hell, and weigh a ton sitting right on the stern. each autopilot has its advantages, but mine are older models and the more recent ones are different. they are very convenient, quick to set and great in light air and under power. i view the vane and autopilot as complementary systems. if i had only one for most all sailing, i would choose the autopilot. on the other hand, going offshore, i would rather leave the liferaft home than do without my vane.
falling overboard-i always use my harness if i am not easy swimming distance to a buoy or standing depth water, always at night or in anything but fair weather. singlehanded or with my inexperienced wife as crew, i assume that if i go overboard i will die. that includes going overboard with my harness still attached to the boat, as it is not uncommon to get drowned by being dragged under by the boat's forward speed. it is a risk that i am willing to accept as i feel that i can stack the deck in my favor thru safe practices. i used to fear going to the foredeck, especially when it got a little rough. i remember thinking at one point "it's too rough to reef". experience has largely dispelled that fear. going to the foredeck when it is rough is not enjoyable but is not excessively risky.
i will get off my soapbox now.
john
jchurchill@erols.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Some more stuff....
</LI>
Bill,
It very well may be that your AutoHelm is an older model without the adjustments that are available on the AutoHelm wheelpilot 4000+. For the 4000+, the owners' manual describes how to adjust the "rate of turn" of the unit. It says to tell the unit to change course by something close to 90* and watch how the helm responds. She should make a very shallow "S" to port or starboard. If she turns immediately onto the chosen course, the unit is too sensitive resulting in a lot of over correcting when sailing a fixed course. If too large of an "S" is described, the unit is not sensitive enough. This setting on the 4000+ is different from "Auto Sea State". As I understand it, auto sea state is used to desensitize the helm if you are in heavy weather, ie. the helm will not try to correct heading changes caused by surfing down a wave, or pitch and yaw caused by the sea state. This minimizes current draw on the system and your battery will last longer. The heading is still maintained on average, but the vessel will veer from side to side of the intended course. If setting the auto sea state results in a jibe, it is obviously set too insensitive, I would think.
Another thing, Autohelm also recommends (for the wheeelpilot) that the owner check all cables and the helm in general for any slack. If the helm is not "tight" the autohelm will try to adjust with a slack wheel and the vessel will steer "S's". Of course, I think you said that you have a tiller pilot, and if there is any slack in that, you have a bigger problem than the AutoHelm.
I'm looking forward to installing the unit as soon as it gets warm here in Connecticut, it seems like it will do just what I want it to do, but it will take some set-up and studying. I'll keep ya posted...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
Bill,
It very well may be that your AutoHelm is an older model without the adjustments that are available on the AutoHelm wheelpilot 4000+. For the 4000+, the owners' manual describes how to adjust the "rate of turn" of the unit. It says to tell the unit to change course by something close to 90* and watch how the helm responds. She should make a very shallow "S" to port or starboard. If she turns immediately onto the chosen course, the unit is too sensitive resulting in a lot of over correcting when sailing a fixed course. If too large of an "S" is described, the unit is not sensitive enough. This setting on the 4000+ is different from "Auto Sea State". As I understand it, auto sea state is used to desensitize the helm if you are in heavy weather, ie. the helm will not try to correct heading changes caused by surfing down a wave, or pitch and yaw caused by the sea state. This minimizes current draw on the system and your battery will last longer. The heading is still maintained on average, but the vessel will veer from side to side of the intended course. If setting the auto sea state results in a jibe, it is obviously set too insensitive, I would think.
Another thing, Autohelm also recommends (for the wheeelpilot) that the owner check all cables and the helm in general for any slack. If the helm is not "tight" the autohelm will try to adjust with a slack wheel and the vessel will steer "S's". Of course, I think you said that you have a tiller pilot, and if there is any slack in that, you have a bigger problem than the AutoHelm.
I'm looking forward to installing the unit as soon as it gets warm here in Connecticut, it seems like it will do just what I want it to do, but it will take some set-up and studying. I'll keep ya posted...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Bob
Re: Purchase of headsail, furler and tiller autopilot for CD
I justed returned from a 7 month sailing trip from the east coast of Florida on a 1980 CD27. 99% of the time I was singlehanding. The boat was equiped with a Harken (0) roller furler, 150% genoa, Autohelm 2000, etc. I reefed the headsail many times with no problems. The sail shape wasn't great, but who cares when the boat is going at hull speed. The autopilot always worked great, even in a gale I rode out between Tarpon Springs and Dog Island. When going to weather, (which gentlemen just don't do) I had good luck tying off the tiller. On a long trip, you will probably be motoring part of the time and an electric autopilot is the only way to go.
If you decide not to buy a roller furler, I have a great hank-on genoa for sale cheap.
Good luck with your new boat!
Bob
bobmcreynolds@hotmail.com
If you decide not to buy a roller furler, I have a great hank-on genoa for sale cheap.
Good luck with your new boat!
Bob
Bob Marsh wrote: I have just become the owner of CD27#51 (1977) and will be sailing singlehanded most of the time. I want to add a new headsail, roller furler and tiller autopilot. I would very much appreciate any general advice for new owners and specifically for the new toys.
AQUANELL-CD27 Dunedin FL
bobmcreynolds@hotmail.com