recommendations needed for bronze work

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

As you all are probably tired of hearing, my CD36 is in a thousand pieces. All the bronze has been removed for cleaning/polishing/rebedding. Now, I've reluctantly accepted that my bronze parts, once they've been placed in service, need to be allowed to develop a protective surface film. HOWEVER, my bronze stuff now has FAR more than a "nice patina". The boat was stored dirty for a long time. The bronze has thick, flaky, oily verdigris. It has to be brought back before it can be properly rebedded. I want to get it all looking SHINY NEW. I want to take a group of photos with the boat looking absolutely bristol: bronze shiny, teak varnished, new paint, etc.. After that, I'll let the bronze age gracefully.

I have tried to polish these parts. I've had little success. I believe I need to let someone who knows what he (or she) is doing bring all this stuff back to new condition for me. I'm talking about ports, cleats, seacocks, thruhulls and everything else. I tried a local guy. Feigning an initial enthusiasm, he put the whole pile under a sofa for months and forgot about it. I retrieved it (surprised nothing was lost) and I won't be back. A guy I found on the internet was enthusiastic but he gave me a firm price sight-unseen. That seemed strange and inexperienced, so I skipped that.

Please recommend a bronze restoration service that you have had good luck with. I would hope to get the parts back in a reasonable amount of time in sealed plastic bags, looking like new.

[wsonntag]

Try a local National Association of Surface Finishers Association member metal finishing shop and request recommended process such as media blasting/cleaning or buffing/polish.

Bill Sonntag

[sfreihofer]

I've had some success, using mild abrasive wheels by 3M which are commonly available in several grits (Wal-Mart, e.g.). They look like a loofa on steroids. You can use them with a drill, but it's best if the drill is stationary, with either a drill press, or a drill clamped to your workbench. It leaves a fresh clean surface, but not a polished shine. Since my portlights were rough finished to begin with, it worked well on them.

Some surface material is abraded, but mostly the crud, not the bronze. Wear a mask, it's dirty work with lots of airborne dust as you remove the corrosion.

If you'd like to see examples, check my website:
http://members.aol.com/sfreihofer/homepage.html
Look under the "AFTER" tab from the home page.

For milder and less aggressive removal with high shine, such as the winches, I had a lot of luck with Mother's Metal Polish, available in the automotive section of Wal-Mart. Use a stitched cloth buffing wheel, again, in a drill or grinder. Wipe a thin film of "Mother's" on the surface, and buff it, preferably while it is still wet. The buffing wheel will eventually turn black and get "gunked up," which is when I cleaned the wheel by spinning it on a wire brush.

[Troy Scott]

Bill,

Thanks! I would never have guessed that there is a "National Association of Surface Finishers Association". I'll check into that. I guess it's like magazines, there's one for just about everything.....

[Troy Scott]

sfreihofer,

Thanks for your suggestions! Other members of this board have suggested abrasive wheels. I bought them, as well as a lot of polishing supplies. I haven't managed to get consistent good results. I have no excuse other that we can't all be good at everything.....

I've also tried a few chemicals, like naval jelly, phosphoric acid, vinegar, brasso, etc., but not MOTHER'S. I will have to try that.

[Troy Scott]

I had a LOOOONG talk with Roger Winiarsky today. He is the Bristol Bronze guy. He seems very knowledgeable. He is interested in taking on this project for me. He stressed that this is also the time to have these parts inspected for SAFETY. I'm probably going to send him some pieces and see what he does with them. If I like the results (I'm sure I will...) and if I feel I can afford the cost, I'll send the remainder on to Rhode Island for the treatment. He informed me that he had put a mirror finish on all the bronze from a Typhoon for an unnamed Texan. I'd like to hear from that Texan if he's here!

[Tom Keevil]

Troy,
Before sending your bronze off to Roger, be sure to do a search in the archives about people's experiences with Bristol Bronze. Some people have been very pleased and some very disappointed. He certainly knows his stuff, but isn't the easiest person to work with.

[Jeff Barnes]

Troy

I have had many hunks of bronze hardware on my CD36 polished by a few different folks here in Massachusetts. Most metal refinishers can do this using a combination of stripping chemicals (where EPA rules allow) and/or special abrasives and wheels. I have tried it a few times myself but it never comes out as nice. Find a local metal refinisher in your area (yellow pages, etc.), take a piece to them and have them buff one while you wait so you can see how it turns out. My guy did a Lewmar 16 winch drum for me in about 5 minutes.

Jeff

[Troy Scott]

Jeff and All,

I did try a local guy. I doubt he is a member of the "National Association of Surface Finishers" that Bill Sonntag wrote about. He runs a pretty good local machine and welding shop. He polished the shaft log to a fine gloss, even though I only wanted him to press the new bearing into it. I guess he wanted to show me that he could. Anyway, I decided to get him to polish some more parts for me, but this time he left the whole works under a sofa for months and forgot about them. I think he lost interest in polishing after his wheel caught a stainless steel piece, jerked it out of his hands and threw it across the room. Yesterday I downloaded the memberlist from that association, so maybe using that I can find somebody.

I still haven't totally given up on doing it myself. After thinking about it, I believe that the most difficult part of polishing may be getting through the patina, and after that maybe it gets easier. It has been suggested to me that media blasting might be a good way to get rid of the grime and "patina". I want to try that on one piece to learn what kind of finish it produces. I suspect it will be not quite shiny but perfectly clean. But once the bronze is to that state, it might be relatively easy, using mild polishing techniques, to bring it to a high shine. At least that's what I'm hoping. I'm also hoping that the fact that this bronze was originally highly polished will make it easier to get it nice. Does this all seem reasonable?

[Steve Laume]

Troy, your last question seemed to cry out to me. You asked if this all seemed reasonable. That is the real question here, that only you can answer. Are you willing to go to somewhat heroic or expensive (in time or money) levels to polish your bronze and then maintain it that way? Is this a one time photo opportunity to put your boat in absolute perfect condition? I have put some new bronze pieces on my boat and after knocking down the mill finish with some scotch bright it doesn't take very long at all to reach a nice mellow patina. If I wanted all my bronze to stay bright I don't think I would find much time for sailing, as it is in too short a supply already.

That said I used to polish lots of brass stuff when I was back in high school. I still enjoy doing various bits of brass and bronze on a buffing wheel. I find it very gratifing to take a dull piece of metal and turn it into a gleaming gem. Keeping it that way is the hard part. For interior stuff away from a marine environment spraying with a clear coat works for quite a while if it doesn't get heavy use. Polishing by hand, even just to bring back a shine has never been much fun. Clean bronze seems like all Raven could ever hope for. the more the better. Polishing everything the first time is not the hard part. Maintaining it that way is the time consumer. Is that what you really want to be doing with your time?

I was at the Mystic, CT wooden boat show a week ago and saw some boats that did have polished bronze. There were so many absolutely gorgeous boats there and most of them had bronze hardware. When I think back on them I could not remember which were polished or which had a nice traditional patina. The hardware is beautiful in either condition. The only exception was seeing Long White Cloud which was a husband and wife crewed boat that has been cruising the world for eight years. They did have polished bronze and it amazed me that they were maintaining the boat at that level. I even asked about it and they told me they didn't always keep it that shiny but did go to the extra effort for shows. Living aboard all the time they felt they had the time to go to that level. They were also attending shows and the boat was actively on the market. It was beautiful but would also have been if the bronze had not been polished.

When you do get your boat finished there had best be plenty of pictures. At that moment in time you will have the most beautiful CD-36 in existence.

Best of luck with all of your endeavors, Steve.

[Bob Luby]

One suggestion might be Lysol toilet bowl cleaner- a boat show vendor suggested it to me. Put it on with a toothbrush, It will work quickly, Then buff off the remaining verdigris. You might want to try neutralizing it with some alkali after the brass is cleaned because I could **see** the finish re-tarnish after the verdigris came off. Try it on a small piece first.
________
Chrysler pronto cruizer
________
MONTANA MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

[Troy Scott]

Steve,

I've reluctantly come to accept that the bronze won't stay bright. But I believe it all needs to be bright (like new) when I reinstall it on the boat. I don't see how the hardware can be well bedded and the properly fastened if I don't clean it up. I also know that it can't be properly INSPECTED FOR SAFETY if it isn't cleaned up. I don't want to miss a work-hardened chain plate with a tiny crack hidden by verdigris.

Bob,

I've tried a few chemicals, including Lysol, with limited to no success. Some chemicals do seem to accelerate the recurrence of new corrosion.

[Tom Javor]

My current boat is a 1929 Herreshoff S Boat that I have had extensively restored. During the 2 year rebuild I stripped and repolished all of her original bronze. The best way to do it is with a combination of chemical and mechanical means. For the chemical side of things my best results were with lysol toilet bowl cleaner - the one with mild hydrochloric acid in it. Brush on a coat and let it sit for 5 minutes or so - the surface will turn to a whitish color as the acid breaks down the verdi gris. When you're at a finished point here wash it down by dunking into a bucket of water and vinegar to counteract the acid inthe toilet cleaner. Both the length of time and proportions of vinegar to water you will need to experiment with. Heavy oxidation may need to be gone over with moderate steel wool while coated with the lysol. Be sure to wear gloves when handling the the lysol product.

Next step is to get a cloth jewelers wheel (goes on a chuck on a radial saw or bench grinder) along with assorted jeweler's rouges.
Work your way up throught the grits and you'll get a mirror finish to previously polished bronze. Bronze that was originally left as a textured finish is much more difficult to handle and will require experimentation.

Be cautious about sending your stuff out to hardware companies.

Feel free to private me if you're interested in more info.

[Tom Javor]

Ok - so all the budding chemists onthe board are right - vinegar will not neutralize the lysol. I t was diluted bleach that I used, maybe a cup or so to a gallon of water. I knew something seemed funny about my prior post when I submitted it.

[Tom Javor]

check with a local custom car or motorcycle business - the shop that does their chrome work should be able to do your work locally.