"Topping Lift" on Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender

[RIKanaka]

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with a Boomkicker or rigid boom vang on a Typhoon as an alternative to a topping lift?

[Sea Hunt]

Hello Dick:

I apologize but I am confused by your post. When motoring off the mooring I will not have the main deployed. The main will be remain wrapped and tied to the boom with sail ties. Thus, the main should not pick up any wind gusts, etc.

When we motored her to the marina for haul out and survey, etc. the "pigtail" was attached and the main was secured around the boom. We had not difficulties.

If the main were deployed and the boom still attached to the pigtail and I was trying to motor (or sail) any distance at all then I would agree with your concern. However, my plan is to motor out into Biscayne Bay with the main wrapped and tied to the boom. Once I am in Biscayne Bay (and away from everything and everyone) I will remove the sail ties and raise the main while the pigtail is still attached. I am "assuming" all that will (should) happen is my Ty will turn up into the wind (in irons) as that is the direction (tack) of least resistance. I can then turn off the O/B, unhook the pigtail, release the mainsheet, and raise the hank on jib.

Please help me to understand if this is a reasonable sequence of procedures or am I missing something

RIKanaka:

We have Garhauer (sp ) rigid boom vangs on most of the Harbor 20s we race at the local sailing school. In my rookie opinion they are great When no tension is applied to the vang the internal spring keeps the boom a little above 90 degrees to the mast. If there is also a set of lazy jacks (some Harbor 20s have them, some do not), it makes striking the mast fairly easy.

I had thought about installing a rigid boom vang but was reluctant to make any significant modifications until I sailed my Ty for a few months.

I very much appreciate the continuing input of everyone. I need as much help and assistance as I can get.

[John Vigor]

Robert, in my humble opinion the pigtail is lubberly and dangerous.
Get rid of it at the first opportunity. Rig a proper topping lift running from the outboard end of the boom to a block on the aft side of the masthead, down the mast, and aft to the cockpit. You'll never regret it, especially if you've ever tried to release a pigtail when the wind has caught the mainsail broadside on and stretched the pigtail bar-taut from the protesting backstay and the gunwale is under water and you're about to scoop water wholesale in the cockpit and you're heeled over so far that you're sliding out of the cockpit yourself into the maelstrom of white water surrounding the boat and people on shore are pointing and screaming and saying he hasn't got his lifejacket on and his tether is around his neck and strangling him and omigod this is terrible and . . .

Robert, get rid of the pigtail, I beg you.

Cheers,

John Vigor

[Ned Crockett]

Used the pigtail last sailing season cruising and racing my weekender Ladybug. Didn't like it for the already stated reasons since I never use a motor to get into or out of my slip -- always sail. Decided this winter to install a topping lift. I found there was enough room at the masthead aft stay connection pin to install a cable "eye" that I fabricated at West Marine. I used a pulley at the other end of the cable located about 3' above the boom when in sailing position. I ran a line through the pulley securing one end of the line to the boom end, the other end through a pulley on the boom side to a "v" cleat on the same side. I can adjust the topping lift easily from the cockpit. I still use the pigtail to support the boom when not sailing. My brother also races his weekender Miss Daisy and has the topping lift that runs from the boom, through a pulley at the masthead, and down the mast to a mast mounted cleat. He does not have a pigtail. Both systems work well. Hope this helps by giving you another option when planning for a topping lift. You chose well when deciding to purchase a Ty. We have 13 Tys in our area and will begin our Spring Series of racing this Wed. afternoon. I must learn more about how the topping lift helps with sail shape.

[mgphl52]

Hi Ned,

From my experience, being able to use the topping lift in combo with a vang or preventer, I could ease the main halyard and lift/steady the boom to some what bag the main for optimum performance far off the wind or wing-n-wing. I think it helps even more for smaller/lighter boats when there is light air with some chop or motor boat wakes, both of which were common in areas I have raced.

I also envy your location with so many Tys! I raced my second Ty for several years, but the local PHRF fleet was always much faster and bigger than Babette. At least I had "race dates" on the calendar and knew I'd be sailing those days!

-michael

[Ned Crockett]

Thanks Michael for your reply. I'll give your suggestion a try when conditions call for it. Sure makes sense. I usually try to keep the boom down when sailing down-wind no matter the wind velocity. Now I have something else to experiment with. Along with our spring and fall Ty series, we enjoy a couple single-handed regattas and a fall Turkey Shoot Regatta that benefits hospice. Last Oct. there were over 120 boats entered. The only requirement is that the design must be 25 years or older. Sailors come from all over the Chesapeake Bay to compete. Luckily, we have enough Tys to have our own fleet so we are not competing with the big boys -- just try to stay out of their way and not get blanketed too often. For the single-handed, we are given a 312 rating. My brother placed third one year by going inshore and picking up a nice breeze. Have a great sailing season and thanks again for the "lesson". Ned

[Joe Myerson]

John V:

Two weeks ago I took the earliest sail of the season--not aboard my own boat, which was still under shrinkwrap--but on a neighbor's lovely, yard-maintained CD27.

As we returned from our sail, I noticed that this boat was equipped with BOTH a "proper" topping lift (attached to the masthead, but adjusted from a vang-like pulley system at the end of the boom), AND a pigtail.

My host waxed enthusiastic about the pigtail, which the yard had installed at his request. He didn't sail with it, but rather used it to secure the boom once the mainsail was lowered.

I don't have any plans to add a pigtail to my boat, since I can keep the boom where I want it with the topping lift and main sheet. But I wonder, is my friend's arrangement "lubberly," so long as he does not use the pigtail while under sail?

--Joe

[lubeckmaine]

FWIW, I use the "pigtail" - I've never had a name for it- all the time on my Tartan 26, hauling the mainsail at the mooring, unclipping the 'tail, sheeting the main, then moving to the mast to haul the jib, and off we go. It's great practice and saves time getting underway. Only exception is when I late getting to a race start - which is a lot of the time and good exercise for the Vire to boot. With Diaspensia and a topping lift, I do the same but don't like to use the Perkins for short periods at low rpm. At any rate, have no desire to install topping lift on Tartan.

[Dean Abramson]

I agree with John V that you (and others...) should have an actual topping lift.

I have always assumed that pigtails are just for when the sail is furled and the boat is at anchor/mooring; it saves stretch and wear on the topping lift. It also can provide a way to get the boom up higher, when you are just hanging out, than the ideal position of the topping lift might provide. And granted, it might keep the boom a little more stable in its position, since it is shorter than a TL. And it would be convenient when dropping sail in benign conditions.

Now, I often hear/read about folks releasing topping the lift, but I think in some cases, they really are just talking about loosening the TL. Personally, I rarely feel the need to.

That's my main point here for Robert: you leave the topping lift attached all the time. I position my topping lift so that the boom hangs just slightly lower than it does with the sail up. Once the sail is up, then the topping lift has a little slack in it, and you sail that way. Whatever side of the main it falls on, that's where it is; sometimes after tacking, it winds up on the other side. The point is, I don't ever touch it.

The biggest benny is that you don't have to remember to do anything before you drop the sail!

And in my view, it is essential for reefing. If you always reef with the engine on and motoring directly into the wind, then maybe the pigtail would work. But if you are reefing under sail, even with the sheets eased, there will be side loads on the boom which will (via the pigtail) put side loads on to your backstay, and they are not meant for that. And like John says, using the pigtail could result in some real Chinese fire drills and danger. I rarely reef while motoring; I am usually sailing.

Unlike a pigtail, a TL moves in an arc along with the boom; it's just as happy wherever the boom is. On whatever tack.

I know that others, particularly racers perhaps, may differ with me. But I think of a TL as an essential part of a sailboat. And a pigtail as a convenience, mainly for a boat at rest.

Dean

[John Vigor]

John V:

Two weeks ago I took the earliest sail of the season--not aboard my own boat, which was still under shrinkwrap--but on a neighbor's lovely, yard-maintained CD27.

As we returned from our sail, I noticed that this boat was equipped with BOTH a "proper" topping lift (attached to the masthead, but adjusted from a vang-like pulley system at the end of the boom), AND a pigtail.

My host waxed enthusiastic about the pigtail, which the yard had installed at his request. He didn't sail with it, but rather used it to secure the boom once the mainsail was lowered.

I don't have any plans to add a pigtail to my boat, since I can keep the boom where I want it with the topping lift and main sheet. But I wonder, is my friend's arrangement "lubberly," so long as he does not use the pigtail while under sail?

--Joe

Joe, I don't understand why your friend would want a pigtail if he already has a topping lift. What is the point of it? Has he seen somebody else's little thingummy and been overcome by pigtail envy?

In his case, because he already has partial control over his boom, a pigtail is even more lubberly than usual. And I say "partial control" because his arrangement presumably means that he can't adjust his topping lift if the boom is out over the gunwale and he can't reach the end of the boom to adjust it. With a proper topping lift, you can raise the boom to scandalize the mainsail in a sudden squall or attend to all your reefing needs, no matter how far out the boom is lying, or how much it is being jerked around. And by "proper" topping loft I mean one that is controlled from the mast or the cockpit.

For example, when I heave to before reefing, my mainsail is usually out at 45 degrees and flogging hard. But I can raise the end of the boom so that it becomes much easier and more efficient to draw the clew down to the end of the boom. You can even raise the boom right up to the reef cringle, if you want. Once the reef line is made fast, I can simply ease the topping lift to lower the boom again, which pulls the foot of the reefed sail nice and tight along the boom.

The word lubberly is variously defined as unhandy, slovenly, and inferior, which I think describes a pigtail rather nicely. It's a cheap and awkward substitute for a boom gallows or a topping lift, and in my opinion it's dangerous because if the mainsail fills before you can release it, you could capsize. It also puts an unfair strain on the backstay. If the sail is flogging while you try to release the pigtail, you could be badly hurt by the boom or even hurled overboard. If you drop the mainsail without attaching the pigtail you could crown the cockpit crew with the boom or damage the coamings, the cockpit seats, and even the gooseneck. A topping lift slacked off in the sailing position will allow the boom to sag a little, but it won't let it fall to the deck.

Finally, a pigtail simply has no place on a classic cruising boat like a Cape Dory. I can think of other designs where a pigtail is probably one of the boat's best features, but to sully one's Cape Dory with
this silly little piece of pseudo-equipment is not only a pitiful social gaffe but also a huge insult the memory of Carl Alberg, one of America's finest small-boat designers.

There. Now aren't you sorry you asked?

Cheers,

John Vigor

[barfwinkle]

Thank you John. My Catalina 27 had a pigtail and no topping lift. It was very lubberly. Also, I had never thought of using the topping lift while reefing (at least as you describe).

Good information.

Fair winds.

[Sea Hunt]

Mr. Vigor:

A question from "the rookie gallery".

Your most recent post suggests that the "pigtail" on my beautiful little CD Ty Weekender, designed by Mr. Alberg, was NOT original equipment at time of manufacture.

Am I reading your post correctly

I will talk with a rigger about installing a topping lift. However, if it requires hauling S/V Tadpole and unstepping the mast, etc., the installation of a topping lift may have to wait for another day. It would be prohibitively expensive to haul again so soon after launching.

I am disappointed in myself for not thinking of this while she was on the hard and her mast lying on the ground next to her. It would have been the perfect opportunity to install a topping lift.

I recall being told some time ago that a rigger will probably not want to go up a Ty mast in the water because the hull is too small and the chance of "roll over" too great.

[John Vigor]

Robert, I can't tell if you're reading my post correctly. I don't know if you're a slow reader. I didn't write it very fast, so you should be okay.

I have no proof that Carl Alberg didn't design a pigtail for Cape Dories, but I think it's a safe bet, otherwise he'd have been run out of town on a garboard strake by his contemporary designers.

I think, if you look at the plans, you'll find part of a topping lift sketched on the end of the boom. No pigtail. It took a special dearth of talent to design a pigtail.

I wouldn't get too upset about your pigtail at this stage, if I were you. The smaller the boat, the less the damage it can do. Just treat it with respect, and a lot of forethought about its potential for danger. But it would be nice to change over to a topping lift at some later stage.

As for riggers who won't go up your mast in case they capsize the boat . . . good grief, sir, what has happened to the old spirit of adventure? Where are the men of oak who would scamper gaily aloft, heedless of danger, scoffing at the possibility of a little dunking in the water? I'm afraid, Robert, that you have fallen in with a bunch of wusses. Riggers, indeed! Riggers my backside!

Cheers,

John Vigor

[lubeckmaine]

Is there anything simpler than a PT- er that lubberly thing

[MFC]

Robert -
Ya got a boat!!!!

Now go sail man!

If the mooring field is too crowded on the weekend, don't stay home -- grab one of those excess sailors (look for long legs, short skirt) and get some help finding your way out of the mooring field.

Respectfully, the time to practice mooring is when yer done sailing for the day. The time to worry about your rig is when you are sitting on the hood of your car drinking a beer at the end of the day (or better yet inside the car cause you only beat the front back to the mooring by 5 mins and its pouring rain). Whatsmore, your boat has survived for quite a while without a topping lift -- I'm betting you'll be okay until the end of the season.

I almost wasted my post #1 here congratulating you on getting your Ty. Now I know why I didn't . . . I was saving it to tell you to stop thinking and start sailing!

Fair winds and as Cap'n Ron says . . . (add yer fav!)

-M