Lazy Jacks & Reefing

[Dean Abramson]

Last year was my first with lazy jacks. I never reefed the main all season. (Should have once!)

Question: do lazy jack users generally tie up the reef points after reducing sail? It seems to me that with the lazy jacks (and the full battens we have adding stiffness), that would be unnecessary.

Yes/no?

I'd rather not install reef point lines, if there is no good reason to.

And a question re terminology: are the tie-up lines themselves technically known as "reef points." It seems like I read that somewhere. To me, "reef points" is generally used as in "we have two reef points in our main." Meaning there are two horizontal lines, with cringles on each end (and tie-up holes in between), where the sail can be reefed. Calling the Boat-speak Police!

Dean

[Stan W.]

Dean, the technical term is "gasket" but you rarely hear it used.

[John Vigor]

And a question re terminology: are the tie-up lines themselves technically known as "reef points." It seems like I read that somewhere. To me, "reef points" is generally used as in "we have two reef points in our main." Meaning there are two horizontal lines, with cringles on each end (and tie-up holes in between), where the sail can be reefed. Calling the Boat-speak Police!

Dean

Dean, various people have various names for them, but the simplest terms I know go way back to the days of the square riggers.

The reef band is the strengthening band or strip of canvas across a sail for taking the stress of the reef points.

The reef points are the short pieces of point line fitted in grommets along the reef band. The reef points hold the bundled-up bulk of the reefed part of the sail and stop it flapping in the breeze. And the reef points, one on either side of the sail, are fastened together with reef knots, of course.

So one of the simplest ways for us to describe these things is to ask: "How many rows of reef points does your sail have?"

Cheers,

John Vigor

[Clay Stalker]

Hi there Dean-

All Lazy Jacks do really is contain the main when you drop it. As for reefing, you will still need to have reef lines to draw the leech of the sail down and out and small reef lines attached to the holes at the reef point to tie up the bundled sail. Otherwise, the wind will just blow the sail out and make your reef non productive. Full battens help contain the sail on the boom when dropping it, but also get in the way when raising or lowering the sail....the trick to to make enough slack in them so they don't grab the battens....

When I decide to reef, I put the boat into the wind, drop the main to the first set of reef points and hook it at the mast, pull on the reefing line and cleat it, then tighten the sail with the main halyard. Lastly, tie up the bundled sail, above the boom if possible rather than around it.....if you have a loose footed main....otherwise, around the boom is okay. All the Lazy Jacks do really is keep the main from falling off the boom and all over the deck etc.

Does this make any sense??

[Dean Abramson]

Clay, I understand that I still have to reef the sail at the mast and end of the boom, but it really seems (like I say, I have not yet reefed the main on this boat) that between the lazy jacks (I have three "legs") and the full battens, the excess sail area is not going anywhere.

Yes, I have found that I have to be straight on the wind in order to raise or lower the main, now that I have the jacks. That's pretty much how I always operated anyway. But without the engine in use, in a strengthening breeze, to reef, I will need to have the crew luff the boat up momentarily. Lower the sail, tie/hook the reefs in, then repeat the luff-up to raise the sail. We will see if I can do that fast enough... I can see where under sail alone, this could be an issue with the lazy jacks. In the past, when I have done this, I have always said to the crew, "whatever you do, don't tack the boat," because I really don't want to have to re-sheet the headsail at that moment. But with the need to be truly on the wind to deal with the main now, I may have to think about using the motor to reef. Do you?

Thanks for the input, and thanks to Stan and John too.

Dean

[Andy Denmark]

I think tieing up the reef ties has much to do with the situation in which reefing is done. On a leg of a closed race course the reef ties (or reef nettles, as they are also called) are seldom tied in as they will simply have to be released in a few minutes. Ditto for other relatively short-term situations -- waiting for a front to blow through, short-duration thunderstorm, etc. We have a lot of these here so this practice might not be applicable to other geographic locations. Often during a race we will crank in a reef, knowing it won't be reefed for long, and never secure the ties. We practice reefing and shaking out reefs when hard on the wind when breaking in new racing crew.

As for tieing the reef ties in, they should never be cinched down tight. Their only function is to keep the bunt of the sail from blowing around. They are neither designed, nor intended, to exert any sort of restraining force on the sail. Ripped out reef ties were our most frequent repair when I was with the sail loft, either from being cinched down too tight or failing to untie them when the sail was hoisted when shaking out the reef.

When not racing, my favorite way of reefing the main, especially when single-handed, is to heave to and then reef the main. Hove to, the boat is essentially motionless, slowing the apparent wind, and keeping the main is somewhat in the wind shadow of the backed jib. This makes the whole process easier. The reef ties aren't put in until the boat is back on her feet and sailing because the ones on the aft end of the (now stable) boom are within reach when close hauled. They are out of reach with the main out to the side, sail flogging, and the boom jumping around, making securing them pretty hard.

FWIW
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Gsx-R1000

[Dean Abramson]

Andy, I have to laugh at myself a little. I have always been so skittish about accidentally tacking the boat while luffing up to reef. But now that you say that, I realize that in fact, if the boat does tack, then I am more or less hove to. No?

Maybe I am overly concerned about the lazy jacks interfering. After all, they move along with the boom. Clearly, what I need to do is practice! See how it works. Duh.

I have spent so much time working on this boat, that I feel like after two seasons, I am still not sailing it all that well. My 25D was like an old shoe; but I have still not gotten to the point that many things on this new boat are automatic. I love the twin headsails, but I still have to think a lot about it all.

Let's say I am on a beam reach, and the wind pipes up. All three sails are up. My yankee is on a furler. Would my first move to be to partially furl the yankee; and then next take the first reef in the main? Or take the main's reef first, while the gettin is good? What about on other tacks?

I would be very interested in hearing any input about the sequence of reducing sail on a rig like mine.

Dean

[Oswego John]

Dean,

I guess most sailors have their own proven method of reducing sail.

The way I have always thought was that the main goes up first and comes down last. After the main is hoisted, then the foresail(s) go up. At the end of the sail, the fore sail is dropped (or reduced) first, and then the main sail.

If you reduce or reef the mainsail first, you create a negative sail imbalance and the bow falls off the wind. If you reduce the foresail first, you can still nose into the wind and make it easier to reef the main.

I don't know for sure. That's the way I've been doing it. I suppose that some others might do it differntly.

My $.02 (USD)
O J

[Clay Stalker]

Dean-

Andy's excellent explanation made me realize that all you were asking is whether the ties need to be done when reefing....I did not get that from your first post. And thanks to Andy for clarifying this. No, I don't always tie the reef points, but usually do because when the wind pipes up in the afternoon in the Northeast, it usually stays up for a few hours, so it's worth tying them in. And I agree that heaving to is the easiest way to put in a reef when single-handing, but with another crew member steering or an autopilot, I usually just go into the wind and don't bother to heave to.

[Clay Stalker]

Dean-

The sequence of shortening sail depends on the boat. On Cape Dorys and other full keel boats that sail pretty well under genoa alone, I found that putting a reef first in the main and then beginning to furl in the genoa kept the boat balanced best. But on J-Boats and some other boats with large mains and small jibs, the first thing I did was furl in the jib altogether when the wind pipes up as the boats sail well under main alone and even point well. Depends a lot on the design of the boat and the sailplan. Our boats just don't sail well with the main alone, but do pretty well with just a genny flying. But J-Boats I have sailed sail real well under main alone.

I honestly don't know the best sequence to use on a double-headsail sloop like most CDs are, but expect that the main should probably be reefed first. I was just beginning to get this all down on my Shannon cutter when I decided that a sloop is easier to sail, points a bit better, and does everything this coastal sailor needs without the compexity of additional headsails. But you can't beat the many sail combinations available with the cutter for off-shore work....I just never really got around to learning how best to do this.

[Andy Denmark]

What you say about heaving to is correct -- turn up to a close hauled course with the jib sheeted in tight, then tack over without releasing the jibsheet, and let the main flog. The helm is put down and secured there so the boat is "trapped" between trying to fall off from the backed jib but headed up by the helm as the boat picks up way. The result is the boat simply stops and see-saws between these two opposing forces, making very little SOG while doing so. Some minor adjustment of the main & helm is usually necessary to further stop any forward motion but only the back edge of the main works to do this before it luffs and starts flogging.

Frankly, I dont know how you'd do this with any self-tending headsail short of tieing the club boom to weather or striking the foresail altogether. As you've probably surmised, I'm not a fan of cutter rigs with the foresail on a permanent stay. This is further complicated with a club boom.

It's all in the physics of the sail plan with the mast as a fulcrum. I think it is also boat-specific -- some experimenting (calm conditions recommended) to see what works for your boat. We reef so frequently down here that it's second nature (Graveyard of the Atlantic, etc.) that we hardly think about it. I know that Rhiannon will sail to weather with a double reefed main and the working jib (outboard tracks) in 40 kts+ and that we can put in a reef in in those conditions. It is not something we like to do but the boat will take it and the crew learns to tolerate the noise. The engine helps in these situations if shoal water is part of the navigation considerations at hand.

I think you have the answer -- practice and see what works for you. It isn't rocket science and it's good to have the drill worked out before you really need to do it. Like so much else in sailing, reefing is only hard to do if you wait until the conditions are at hand where you need to do it.
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MARIJUANA NEWS

[Andy Denmark]

What you say about heaving to is correct -- turn up to a close hauled course with the jib sheeted in tight, then tack over without releasing the jibsheet, and let the main flog. The helm is put down and secured there so the boat is "trapped" between trying to fall off from the backed jib but headed up by the helm as the boat picks up way. The result is the boat simply stops and see-saws between these two opposing forces, making very little SOG while doing so. Some minor adjustment of the main & helm is usually necessary to further stop any forward motion but only the back edge of the main works to do this before it luffs and starts flogging.

Frankly, I dont know how you'd do this with any self-tending headsail short of tieing the club boom to weather or striking the foresail altogether. As you've probably surmised, I'm not a fan of cutter rigs with the foresail on a permanent stay. This is further complicated with a club boom.

It's all in the physics of the sail plan with the mast as a fulcrum. I think it is also boat-specific -- some experimenting (calm conditions recommended) to see what works for your boat. We reef so frequently down here that it's second nature (Graveyard of the Atlantic, etc.) that we hardly think about it. I know that Rhiannon will sail to weather with a double reefed main and the working jib (outboard tracks) in 40 kts+ and that we can put in a reef in in those conditions. It is not something we like to do but the boat will take it and the crew learns to tolerate the noise. The engine helps in these situations if shoal water is part of the navigation considerations at hand.

I think you have the answer -- practice and see what works for you. It isn't rocket science and it's good to have the drill worked out before you really need to do it. Like so much else in sailing, reefing is only hard to do if you wait until the conditions are at hand where you need to do it.
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FORD RANGER EV HISTORY

[Dalton]

I've seen a few sails shredded by them when the reef point blew out.
I wish I remembered to tell my sail maker not to put them in.
I have three reef points in my new main but I don't use the ties.
I love the lazy jacks as they keep things under control.
And a sail tie aft of the the reef grommett.

[Warren Kaplan]

I'm a guy who likes to reef early since 95% of my sailing is single handed. I have lazy jacks up. I drop the sail, haul in on my luff reef line and leach reef line and I'm done. The lazy jacks hold the "excess" reefed sail right along the boom. I never saw the need to tie in the reef points with lazy jack deployed.

[The Patriot]

... The way I have always thought was that the main goes up first and comes down last. After the main is hoisted, then the foresail(s) go up. At the end of the sail, the fore sail is dropped (or reduced) first, and then the main sail ...

I learned abut this subject in about the same way that John describes. One slight difference is to say that the sail "farthest away from the wind" is hoisted first. In the general case, this includes John's technique. However when the wind is astern, as for example when lying alongside and getting underway under sail, or when lying to an anchor or mooring in a strong current that controls the situation, it helps to hoist the jib or genoa first, since that sail will not usually hang up on something with the wind aft. I should note that all my jibs are hank-on, so there is no roller reefing option. Then later when away from the wharf or mooring, one rounds up to hoist the main and continue.

If you reduce or reef the mainsail first, you create a negative sail imbalance and the bow falls off the wind. If you reduce the foresail first, you can still nose into the wind and make it easier to reef the main ...

Using terminology similar to what I wrote above, one could suggest that the sail "closest to the wind" is reduced first. For example when going uphill, John's suggestion of reducing the jib is covered by this comment. However when running off, and in particular with a conventional spinnaker, it sometimes pays to tuck a reef into the main even while continuing with the chute. This is largely a racing thing, but it still may have meaning for cruising sailors.

Once again I agree with John's comments to a major extent, but on my CD 28 I have found situations where it is either more convenient or more efficient to reef the main first before changing out the jib. I note once again that all my jibs are hank-on, so roller reefing is not available. Changing out the jib means working the foredeck, and in conditions where this is warranted there are safety and comfort factors that heavily influence my decision. In recent years I had a number two (130%) genoa built with a reef that takes it down to about 110%. I used this sail during a cruise of several months through the Canadian Maritimes and Maine and never changed it out (although it was reefed often).

In the past there have been designs built to a rule that favored reefing the main first, since the boat was largely a prisoner of its huge overlapping genoa. This is not really the case with the CD designs. My two cents also, but I'm thinking of converting to Euros soon.