sailing without an engine

[Run Aground Again]

Hello Cape Dory Board Folks,

Please don't laugh too hard at my post. I am new to this board and have a hypothetical question.

I have been sailing on and off for several years now, but mostly in little Cape Cod Mercuries and Rhodes 19s. I have also spent some time on a Macgregor 25 on the Sea of Cortez.

I now have a Cape Dory 22D. It is in crazily good condition but has been on her trailer for about two years now. I will be fixing her up this spring and look forward to some mellow time on the water.

My question is: How feasible is it to sail a CD22 with absolutely no engine? I very much enjoy the quiet and simplicity of motorless sailing in smaller boats. I also am working hard to cut my carbon footprint and like the idea of minimizing my encouraging of the fossil-fuel industry.

Has anyone on the list ever removed the engine from their CD22D to enhance her simplicity? How easy would she be to scull (e.g. using a Chinese yuloh technique) or row (e.g. using oarlocks) on days when the wind leaves you stranded?

Am I crazy? Any advice, thoughts, comments?

Thanks,
- john

[Dean Abramson]

John,

I personally wouldn't do it, but it sure is not crazy.

I would suggest reading books by Lin and Larry Pardey, who have circumnavigated with two different engineless sailboats. Larry explains in one of them exactly how he made his sculling oar. Their current boat probably weighs twice what a CD22 does. It can be done.

Tip: get to know friendly powerboaters with towing lines!

I admire your attitude. Good luck.

Dean

[Paul D.]

John,

I knew several folks sailing around 25 footers without motors so it can be done. Most CD'ers don't as we are mostly working stiffs who have limited time onboard. I would ask a few questions.

Does my sailing situation allow time to sail with the wind schedule not my own?

Do I have a good locale to sail in and out of? I am on a mooring and one summer started my motor only three times as I usually sail on and off it. Unless there is a reason to start the motor, I don't do it. If we were at a dock it would be different.

Is the motor needed for charging batteries or other?

How much do I care about resale?

Those are things I would consider. Most people would say you're nuts but I wouldn't if an engineless boat fits your sailing purpose. Though I must admit, if I were sailing around an engineless boat I would like a yawl. Man I love sailing those boats, I mean you can back them up in the right conditions if you want. There is so much control. But the 22 is easy to handle and fun to solo. Still, you are at the wind's schedule, not your own.

Paul

[bill2]

john

Since your cd22d already has a diesel ( pretty rare as I recall ) I would probably consider biodiesel ( 100% and checking lubricity, cetane and such ) and keeping it for backup - like if I/passenger was ill or caught in a storm. For example, there's an MIT professor that's getting 100 times more oil from algae than others are from soy beans.

If you do decide to remove the diesel - if it were me - I'd prep the removed diesel for long term storage with the idea that a future owner ( or even the admiral ) may want it back some day.

Anyways - just my own $0.02

On the other hand if your schedule permits the uncertain return times I think it would be cool.

Good Luck -

[Parfait's Provider]

I applaud your desire to go green and reduce your carbon footprint, but it seems to me that you ought to maintain the engine and all its expensive components until you have time to experiment with not using the engine.

[Oswego John]

Run Aground Again,

Maybe the first thing that you should consider is the installation of an accurate depth meter. (Big grin)

If you remove the engine and tranny and empty the fuel tank, as well as pull the prop and shaft, I'm trying to imagine what this will do to the balance of the hull.

Wouldn't it make more sense to leave everything status quo and not run the engine. Just sail. This thought might pay off in spades when it comes time to sell the boat and hopefully upgrade.

Having an engine with low hours on it might be very handy in case of an emergency. You never know.

Think spring,
O J
PS: Don't forget to seal the shaft tube.

[Lang]

On my Eleanor, there is OB thats very rarely used. Most days I sail out and sail back to my berth in a very nice, quiet and calm marina. Not quite possible if the marina is jammed pack, but it usually is not.

Anyway, I tried setting up for a Chinese sculling, but it wont work. Maybe something is wrong with my setup. I am looking forward to visiting the home of Chinese sculling in Suzhou, China... hope to find some time to do that soon. But really, it is not as simple as it seems. I have had better success with a paddle, the Chinese dragon boat style. 5 1/2' T-handle.

Rowing with a oarlock fixed on the winch worked okay but I will have to keep a long 8' oar.

Yes! Go green. I'll try everything before pulling that rope.

[nprice]

John,
I sail all Summer without an engine in my Ty but I wouldn't take out an engine that's already there. Also depends on where you keep her. I'm on a mooring in front of the house and I know the local waters pretty well. I do use a small 2hp for launching and retrieval though it failed once and I was rescued by the Marine Patrol who turned a blind eye to the lack of registration.
Nick

[The Patriot]

... I now have a Cape Dory 22D ... My question is: How feasible is it to sail a CD22 with absolutely no engine? ... Has anyone on the list ever removed the engine from their CD22D to enhance her simplicity? How easy would she be to scull (e.g. using a Chinese yuloh technique) or row (e.g. using oarlocks) on days when the wind leaves you stranded?

Many people sail without an engine, so if you have the time (and in particular the patience), you should not have any problem. However I think a practical approach to your particular situation would indicate that, rather than surgically removing the diesel and all associated equipment, you should consider selling the 22D and replacing that boat with a 22.

First off, you will be ahead financially, since the diesel-equipped boat will almost certainly fetch more. Next, you will not have to go through the considerable effort of removing the engine, which also means removing fuel tanks, through-hulls, fuel lines, wiring, control panels, etc., etc. Of course removing such a major system means quite a bit of glass work and time on the hard,. Finally, you can use the net revenue gain to either spruce up the 22, or pay for a season's mooring. I have not mentioned that you will considerably reduce the market value for the boat by removing the diesel, and this action will likely have detrimental consequences when you decide to sell (which will happen).

I would not be surprised if there were someone on this board who would be interested in talking trade with you.

[Joe Myerson]

Hi John,

Like most of the other posters here, I'm interested in your ambition to sail without an engine--and I agree with most that you should probably start by simply tyring not to use the diesel in your 22D.

For roughly the first decade of my sailing life, I sailed without an engine--mostly on small, light vessels with centerboards. This meant that I was largely dependent on following the tides and currents, and sometimes I propelled my boats by paddle, oar, sculling with the rudder or even jumping overboard and pushing. Of course, I was a kid, it was summer vacation, and I had no schedule to worry about (sometimes I didn't get home until after dark--my Mom was not pleased).

Here are some web resources that might interest you, if you're not already familiar with them:

One is the West Coast organization known as The Oar Club (www.oarclub.org)? I don't know how much of a real organization it is, and how much of it is the one-man operation of Jerome Fitzgerald, but it's a site dedicated to engineless sailing.

Fitzgerald has also self-published two books on the subject. They're available on Amazon.com; as an editor, I found them tough going--he didn't bother to edit or proofread them. But they were interesting reading nonetheless.

Also, if you're interested in setting up oarlocks and constructing sweeps for your CD 22, you might look at the website below, which describes how the owner of a Pearson Ariel built sweeps and set up locks that fit on his winches:

www.solopublications.com/sailario.htm

Good luck with your experiment.

--Joe

[John Ring]

[img]http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x105 ... e-2004.jpg[/img]

John,

I would suggest reading books by Lin and Larry Pardey, who have circumnavigated with two different engineless sailboats.
Dean

Seraffyn has changed hands, and has an engine now. She lives about 20 miles down the coast from me. The realities of sailing in and out of a harbor crowded with moorings just isn't the same as crossing oceans and arriving in empty anchorages.

It always bothers me to see this courageous little boat with the big chunk of iron hanging off the back, throwing Seraffyn off her lines.

BTW: Seraffyn was Lin & Larry Pardey's first boat, and 'round the world they went. If you haven't read "Cruising in Seraffyn" it's good read, and the start of a good series of books based on this little boat.

John Ring
CD28 Tantalus
www.yachttantalus.us

[rtbates]

I wouldn't, but then that may just be me. As for reducing your carbon footprint, simply don't use the engine. As for the Pardeys, Larry is the first to admit that they ask for and accept tows.
Sculling is fine if the issue is simply no wind. Where a good motor comes into it's own is bucking high winds/currents. Ocean cruising w/o a motor is one thing. Getting into and out of harbors and on and off moorings w/o one is a completely different thing.

Good luck with your new boat..

[trapper]

I agree with one poster who suggested you get a CD22 instead of the CD22D. Mine is in great shape and for sale or maybe trade? I am in Charleston and our currents are such that I would not want to sail without an engine. I don't know what the conditions are like in Savannah (I understand Beaufort has pretty good currents too), but in Charleston I don't think you will get too far trying to scull a CD22 against a 5k or 6k current. Also, most marinas will not allow you to sail into the slip and they require that the boat be able to move on her own power (not sail power). While the CD22 is trailerable, I don't think I would want to dry sail her. It is a lot of boat to set up each time you want to go sailing. So you will have to have somewhere to put her that will allow you to go engineless--and if you remove the engine you greatly limit her docking opportunities.

I have sailed without engines intentionally with a boat small enough to stop it if you come in too fast by jumping on the dock and grabbing the headstay--cant do that with a CD22. I have also sailed boats without an engine unintentionally when the engine failed. I am always relieved when I tie up to the dock without incident and I don't leave the dock until I have the engine fixed.

I can sail "QT" , my CD22 (with engine) from my dock on the Stono on any tide (some more difficult that others). I met a guy last weekend with a beautiful CD28 docked just over the bridge from me in the Wapoo near Elliott's Cut and he can sail only on slack tide with an engine. If you are going to sail engineless, maybe you should try it in a lake or some place without a current.

[j2sailor]

Sailing engineless ranks as one of my top priorities. In order to do so well, one must practice in a variety of conditions and learn what that individual boat will and won't do. I was the head of the nav and seamanship dept. at Chapman School of Seamanship, and really worked on this with the students. Our fleet was located in a very narrow canal. The width of the canal was about 35 feet from outer pilings to oppositie side seawall.

Being that all fleet boats were donated, you either begged a tow or sailed in if the engine died. This decision was based on the wind direction and strength inside the canal (not much current in this area). Preparation was the key, with lines and fenders set and anchor manned and ready to deploy in seconds on very short scope. We constantly scanned ahead for open pier space, slips or pilings in case we needed to pull out of the way of boat traffic.

Several times, we brought the donated Cape Dory 27, Catalina 27 and Hunter 28 in under main, jib or bare poles. Never a problem because we prepared, discussed "what if" strategies and had several alternative plans if things didn't work out.

I knew the CD 27 intimately because I lived aboard and sailed her extensively for years. She sails quite well under bare poles with the wind a bit abaft the beam. And she manuevers on a dime when you feather the rudder.

Places with heavy current require additional strategies. I hove to for almost two hours just off of Woods Hole (Buzzards Bay) waiting for a four knot flood current to slacken. You need time and patience for this type of sailing. It really makes you more aware of the true art and seamanship of sailing.

I also taught narrow channel short tacking. This can get dicey when winds are shifting and traffic picks up. This important skill requires great concentration, reactions and timing.

So keep your little diesel. And have it ticking over in neutral in the tight spots. But practice your skills, ready to pull them out of the ditty bag when you need them. Keep prepared. Have at least two alternative backup plans. It'll make you a better sailor and you'll enjoy the challenge.

Best - Cap'n J.

[Joe Myerson]

Cap'n J:

If you've gone through Woods Hole Passage without power, I'm really impressed.

I've done it exactly once. But even then I had my auxilliary (an outboard on my catboat) in position, ticking over in neutral. And I was still scared.

My hat's off to you.

--Joe