Installing New Seacock's (A New Photo Based How To Article)

[Maine Sail]

Hi All,

I finished another photo based "how to" article/blog based on the replacement of my through-hulls and sea cocks that I completed last spring.

Take a look and let me know what changes I should make or if the instructions are clear enough for the average DIY boater.

My intent with these articles is to help the average boater save $$$. The labor time involved in this job was a lot and would have translated into a yard bill in excess of 2k if I had paid my boat yard to tackle this job.

I've had great responses, over 630 "thank you notes", just on my "Re-Packing A Traditional Stuffing Box" article alone so I continue to do them to help in any way I can.

I hope this article helps as much as the others I've done..

Here it is:http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_thruhulls

<img width="540" src="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/83681049.jpg">

[Tim Mertinooke]

That is a nice tutorial. Wisdom is always appreciated and it's even better when it comes with pictures. Thank you.

I have a question about the seacocks you used. I think those are the ones that Groco put out a service bulletin for because a low quality stainless steel was used for the stem. Yours looks like it doesn't have the stainless steel stem, but the brass one instead which Groco says is ok. I'm curious about a statement you made on your site:

DO NOT USE ANYTHING BUT MARINE RATED SILICON BRONZE ON YOUR BOAT!!!

I agree with you that a high quality bronze should be used in salt water especially below the waterline instead of inferior alloys like brass. Why then did you choose a seacock that uses brass on an integral component such as the stem whose failure would prevent its use? The image below was taken from the Groco website.


<img width="540" src="http://www.mrmert.com/images/Stem-Cmprsn-08-wv.jpg">

[Maine Sail]

When I called Groco & spoke with Jamie P., who is very well versed by the way, I was told that the new valves stems are indeed bronze not brass and that is apparently a typo. They meant brass in color. However it they ever do fail, I can easily replace them because I used the flanged adapter not the integral valve as in the pictures..


The recall of these valves was not for corrosion issues but rather because the manufacturing factory changed spec on Groco, without telling them, then could not guarantee the quality of or what type the stainless the stems were made of. According to Groco most of these valves went to a few OEM's mostt of them in Florida..

Oh, and I'd still rather have the Groco's any day than the failures I've had with Marelon. This failure by the way is catastrophic because the handle holds the o-rings in place so when it breaks off your boat starts filling with water with nowhere to stick a wooden plug!!

<img width="540" src="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/91192265.jpg">

[img]http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/91192269.jpg[/img]

[Tim Mertinooke]

Either way if they are not bronze and are brass, and they fail, I can easily replace them because I used the flanged adapter not the integral valve in the pictures..

True, and that is a nice feature, but the timing of the potential failure is key. At the dock and twenty-five miles offshore are two different beasts?

Oh, and I'd still rather have the Groco's than this failure I've had with Marelon...

The breaking of the handle is a problem with many marelon seacocks from what I have read and is certainly a cause for concern. I have not heard, nor read that water will enter through the stem if the handle breaks however. I am replacing my seacocks within the next few years on my recently purchased Fuji 32 except for the head seacock which is a Spartan (and frozen open.) This is why I am taking such an interest in this thread as I have been researching a great deal lately and appreciate your experiences in both parts and installation. I do think Marelon has a lot going for it despite some of the earlier problems they had with handles. One needs to remember that Marelon is a plastic, but it is a similar plastic your boat is made out of, fiber reinforced. It is light years apart from traditional plastic fittings, it's UL listed and has been tested enough to be deemed seaworthy and a comparable replacement to bronze. When manufacturers like Morris and Hinkley (not known for cutting corners) use them on their new boats that says something. The non-corrosion issue is a huge plus for Marelon as well. They are not maintenance free and do require lubrication like any moving part. With proper maintenance they work smoothly and a broken handle is not likely to occur. I think the failures you have seen are the result of improper maintenance from the PO as evidenced with improper installations and product selection. My beautiful Spartan seacock, which is a top of the line bronze seacock, was not properly maintained by the PO and is as useless as a marelon seacock with a broken handle and stem right now due to the lack of maintenance. I am still undecided between marelon and bronze and plan on doing more research. Thanks again for your insights as they help me make my decision.

[Maine Sail]

The three Marelon valves I had break were all mine and installed by me and had been maintained by me! I'm not some clueless non-mechanically inclined schmuck who wouldn't know a screw driver from a hammer.

I wanted to use Marelon valves on this boat but when I called the manufacturer to ask if they had changed or beefed up the handle design they claimed they knew nothing of breaking handles and could not confirm a design change. At that point I began the search for a suitable replacement and found the Groco's.

There have been numerous reports of broken Marelon handles not just mine and I can assure you that when the handle breaks off when the boat is in the water it starts leaking. Two of my handles broke off on the hard during my pre-launch check list and the third happened in water which was a royal PITA...

While the Groco's are not perfect they satisfy my comfort level and can easily be changed due to the flanged adapter. Marelon has many advantages over bronze but the design and weak handle preclude me from using them again until they make a design modification to beef up that handle design..

I know Marelon is not just any old plastic but that handle stud is not small and if that was bronze you'd have to put all 200 lbs of your weight on it to break it, or more, so the old "Marelon is tough as steel" thing is not computing with me other wise three of them would not have snapped off in my hand!

To make matters worse the manufacturer did not stand behind the product which just added insult to the injury. I have a hand full of these valves in a box but I now only use them for non through hull applications.

If you're comfortable I'd use them but I am not..

[Tim Mertinooke]

I offer my apology if you thought I implied you were a "clueless non-mechanically inclined schmuck who wouldn't know a screw driver from a hammer". It was not my intention at all and I'm grateful for your views as they will help me decide which product to use in the near future.

[aja]

Just curious if price was your only reason not to use new Spartan seacocks or do you think that the new Groco style are better?

Thanks,
Diana

[Maine Sail]

The Spartan's are a great product but I wanted the new flanged adapter and currently only Groco offers them.

Replacing a Spartan, which I would eventually need to do, requires removing the through hull and the bolts fastening it to the hull.

With the Groco flanged adapters I simply thread on a new bronze ball valve about a two minute job..

Groco is not better nor do I think it's any worse than Spartan just a different option...

[Greg Kozlowski]

I think you are wrong, Mainsail. The Spartan seacocks on our 1979 CD36 are now going on 29 years old and work and look as good as new.

We pulled all of them back in 2000 to check their integrity before going cruising and ended up putting then all back in as they were in perfect condition. With regular maintenance, the simple and robust design of these seacocks is without doubt the real thing compared to any other.

To say that Groco are not better or worse but just "different" is simply laughable.

[Maine Sail]

Greg,

I too had Spartans on my old Cape Dory and liked them. They are a good piece of equipment. We'll have to wait a while to see if your statements are true about the Groco's. I will say the Spartan's are certainly a more robust design and I would guess it would take a bulldozer to ever "snap" them off.

Again, I liked the flanged adapter idea as I stated. Better or worse only time will tell. You may be right..

One other note. I don't suggest in my article that one should use the Groco's over any other product including Marelon, Apollo or Spartan's. Spartan's are great as are some other products...

[Maine Sail]

Greg,

You'll be happy to know that I've added the paragraph below to my site.

"Groco, however, is not the only game in town and products like Spartan Marine's seacocks have been reported, by many, to last close to 30 years, possibly more, with only the occasional re-build which is quite easy. Many folks are also happy with Marelon which are also resistant to corrosion. Choosing a seacock configuration that allows you to sleep at night is what's most important."

While I'm not personally comfortable with Marelon, with all the reported broken handles, many are so I added Marelon too...

[sgbernd]

I installed and maintained (per instructions by Forespar) a Marelon seacock on the engine raw water inlet. The shaft of the handle broke off after a bit less than 2 years of service. I learnt my lesson. It didn't leak at all, but fortunately it broke off in the open position, flush with the valve body. Had it broken in the closed position, as it was the engine raw water inlet, the boat would have been stranded until something was fixed.

I cleaned up the 25yr old Spartan with hydrochloric acid, ground it, greased it, and put it back when I hauled. That is what I should have done the first time around.

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

Obviously a flanged adapter with the valve screwed to it would be structurally superior to just screwing the valve to an ordinary thru-hull. But I doubt it's as strong as a flanged valve. This may be offset by the ease and economy of replacing the valve! Is this flanged adapter approach generally considered a safe way to install below-the-waterline seacocks?

I have mostly original Spartan seacocks in my CD36. They are ALL frozen except for the few that I soaked in penetrating oil. The Groco flanged adapters and valves look nice enough, and they aren't all that expensive. The Apollo stuff looks OK too. I wonder if I should go to the trouble of servicing and reinstalling all those 20 year old seacocks, or just start over with new equipment. I imagine that cleaned and serviced original Spartan seacocks would enhance the value of my boat. But I don't really know this.... Thoughts?

[David van den Burgh]

I have mostly original Spartan seacocks in my CD36. They are ALL frozen except for the few that I soaked in penetrating oil. Thoughts?

Troy,

If I'm reading this correctly, I suggest soaking the remaining seacocks in penetrating oil and putting them back in service. I wouldn't be eager to spend the money on unnecessary items, especially since the Spartan seacocks are among the best.

[Troy Scott]

David and All,

I know that the Spartan seacocks are fine old things, and I may just clean, service and reinstall them. But right now I would like to learn about real-world experience with more modern valves, specifically the safety difference in:
1. Mounting a more-or-less permanently installed Groco flanged adapter with a ball valve attached to it, as opposed to
2. A flanged valve bolted directly to the hull.

I can see that if a toolbox or other heavy object slid or fell against the valve in heavy weather, the flanged VALVE might be safer, i.e. less likely to break off than the flanged ADAPTER. However, that flanged adapter looks very sturdy, so the usual warning about the ease of breaking off a valve mounted on just the thru hull may not be appropriate here. I just don't know. That's why I'm asking.

Aside from the safety issue, from a SERVICE standpoint, the setup with the more-or-less permanently mounted flanged adapted would allow much easier valve replacement compared to having to remove the thru-hull to remove the valve. I just don't yet have a handle on the long term importance/value of this difference. Folks, a penny for your thoughts?