Sail Plan while Running?

Ron Churgin · Post by **Ron Churgin** » Aug 18th, '07, 17:37

While running before the wind in my CD27, with main and genoa, I often get the genoa twisted around the forestay. One reason for this is that I sometimes have to follow some channels and can't run my course based on the wind position. My solution has been to furl the genoa and run using just the mainsail. It works for me since the genoa is on a furler and is easier to douse than the main.

I often see other sailors using just their foresail in the same situation. Is there some disadvantage to what I am doing? Is running with the genoa only preferable? I don't use a spinnaker since I don't usually sail with much crew.

Any advice or words of wisdom on this topic would be welcome.

Ron

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Aug 18th, '07, 18:28

Hi Ron,

The way I see it, subject to debate I'm sure, is running with the mainsail only is how I prefer , too.(in channels, narrow rivers or traffic.)

I feel that anytime the wind is astern or from either quarter, you can run very well without a foresail. This will work even up to a beam wind with some weather helm.

It's pretty tough trying to tack into the wind without some sort of foresail to balance the rig. That's where the genoa shines. Part of it is before the mast and part of it is aft of the mast. There is some semblance of balance established, maybe not perfect, with the use of only this one sail.

As for the other boats, I'm at a loss to explain how they tack upwind with just a regular jib only.

My $.02,
Good luck,
O J

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Aug 18th, '07, 21:42

I never run with the mainsail unless a bit off the wind. Dead downwind I prefer to lose the main and use the jib and staysail wing on wing. The wear on the main from being sheeted out so far is not worth it, and the risk of an accidental gybe certainly isnt worth it. But to be honest, if its a situation where course is changing frequently, like going through a channel or into an anchorage, most likely my engine is running and sails are down (or maybe just the jib), I dont set the boat up for dead downwind sailing unless I know I am going to do it for at least 4 hours.

bobc · Post by **bobc** » Aug 18th, '07, 22:37

When I'm running, I pole out the genoa and fly the main on the other side (wing-on-wing). Works for me.

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Aug 18th, '07, 23:57

Ron Churgin wrote:While running before the wind in my CD27, with main and genoa,

One reason for this is that I sometimes have to follow some channels and can't run my course based on the wind position. My solution has been to furl the genoa and run using just the mainsail.

I often see other sailors using just their foresail in the same situation.
Is there some disadvantage to what I am doing? Is running with the genoa only preferable?
I don't use a spinnaker since I don't usually sail with much crew.

Ron

Hi Russell and Bob C,

What you both have said in your replies is right on. Russell, I like the point you made about jibing. My jury is still in deliberation about wear and tear on the main if it is sheeted out. I've done it from time to time for all my life. Maybe I'll have to rethink that one.

Again you are right. It's academic to run the iron jenny in an area such as this. What I was trying to do was give my answer while staying within Ron's parameters.

I understand where Ron is coming from. On the south shore of Long Island, NY, from the area just east of JFK airport eastward, from the Atlantic Beach bridge to approximately Merrick, there is a myriad of channels from each community to Great South Bay. It might be better to consider them a maze, easy to get lost in if you aren't familiar with them

They run in the general direction of north/south. The prevailing wind is generallya westerly, depending on time of day. There is considerable traffic in each direction, especially on weekends and holidays. You must stay within the confines of the buoys.

Transversing these watery paths through the marshes and cattails is anything but what we think of as sailing.

It does create a nice challenge when sailing, not motoring. Especially sailing single handed. Downwind sailing under these conditions is only a dream. You don't stay on the same course for very long.

I understand your comments and they are well taken. I thought it might be beneficial if I added some extra insight to what Ron is talking about.

BTW, CDSOA has several members living and sailing in that general area.

Best wishes,
O J

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Aug 19th, '07, 12:26

OJ,

Your completely right. Given the situation and the posters desire to actually sail it (which I didnt take into account when giving my answer, I simply gave what I personally do). If one actually wants to sail in such a situation and avoid the engine, then main alone is the way to go. Though in anything more then about 13 knots of wind the boat is going to handle poorly in this situation due to balance issues, but this would hold true under jib alone as well.

If one wants to sail downwind and not bother with two sails, generally I would prefer jib alone to avoid chafe on the main, but this would mainly be in more open waters. However, in a situation where course changes are frequent and involve gybing frequently, the jib would certainly be a tiresom way to do it and in this case main alone makes complete sense and give you much better control.

Warren Kaplan · Post by **Warren Kaplan** » Aug 19th, '07, 14:21

I hate dead downwind sailing. Its better to tack downwind if you can. I know of what you speak.... narrow channels on the inlets of the south shore of Long Island and tacking downwind in most of these channels isn't practical.

I'd opt for using just my big 140% genny as the downwind sail, as long as I knew I would have an adequate area once I got out of the channel to turn into the wind and raise the mainsail. If your genny is on the small side then I suspect it would not make a difference which sail you use to go downwind.

Using both sails though, the main often blankets the genny causing the genny to collapse and wrap itself sometimes around the forestay. So its one sail or the other and I prefer the genny.

Ron Churgin · Post by **Ron Churgin** » Aug 19th, '07, 19:03

Thanks for all the different inputs. I hadn't thought about the added strain using mainsail only puts on the sail, but I am careful to keep it from laying too hard against the spreaders. Uncontrolled jibes I am aware of...and usually avoid, though sometimes concentration lapses.

I usually am in this situation when I am coming home. I run in through the inlet, do a 180 and douse the main and then have to wait for the drawbridge. Next time I might try it genoa only, for comparison. The only problem is that at the entrance to the inlet its usually too hairy to try and get the main down, while the jib furls easily.

Ron

neil · Post by **neil** » Aug 19th, '07, 22:15

This is interesting....
I like going wing on wing A LOT its very fun and frankly looks cool, but its not always possible. When the Main is stealing wind from the jib and I have any worries about gybing I simply sheet the main in till its either not swiping all the wind from the jib or gybing isint too much of a worry. I do not have a roller reefing, I have the hanked on sort and it has always struck me that its easer to change direction with out having to bring sails up and down.
If I were to drop anything it would be the main, I dont seem to have any trouble tacking with my jibs (except the big genny sometimes snags on stuff like the spreaders).

On another note how do you spell gybe? and genoa, and genny?
My spell checker is having a nervous breakdown. GRIN!

Cheers,
Neil

mgphl52 · Post by **mgphl52** » Aug 21st, '07, 11:58

Yes, this can be an issue, especially with a full batten main. We just spent $200 on KAYLA's 5 year old main for patches and reinforcements at points were the sail would touch the shrouds going down wind. However, I must add that we also did a lot of racing for several years. We also made more 60+ mile trips in less than favorable wind under sail - frequently with a double reef - than was fun. So now we don't race as much and the main has some patches for full, 1st reef & 2nd reef touch points. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to keep the weather at bay when we're already out sailing...

With our prevailing south winds, I usually sail the last 1/2 mile or so under main only, especially if single-handed.

Carter Brey · Post by **Carter Brey** » Aug 22nd, '07, 03:39

Sailing through a channel or a crowded anchorage to get to a mooring, I always like to take the wind strength into account. If the wind is light, I prefer the genoa, since it gives me the control to tack away and avoid other boats if I miss the shoot. In high winds, I prefer the main, since the bow has less tendency to fall off before I have a chance to get forward to grab the pickup buoy. Your mileage may vary.

For downwind cruising, I like wing-and-wing with a pole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ6Ey0lHH3E

I agree with the comments about chafe, though. The spreaders will chew through your mainsail faster than poop through a goose.

Cheers,

Carter Brey
Sabre 28 Mk II #532 "Delphine"
City Island, NY

SeaBelle · Post by **SeaBelle** » Aug 22nd, '07, 06:00

Nice video Of Carter sailing Delphine poled out wing 'n wing, a great downwind tactic.

Notice that the pole is set correctly, it seems an extension of the boom; set at the same ( reciprocal?) angle.

Also, I think I see a forerguy. Some just clip the pole to the bowline at the clew. I like to rig the pole with an uphaul (a spare halyard) a foreguy, and an afterguy. Only the sheet goes through the pole's jaw. Then the pole and sail are independent. If a squall or other high winds come up suddenly, I can easily furl the sail and not worry about the pole which is anchored fore, aft and up and down. I can leave the pole up until the wind subsides or take it down at my leisure. Or, if the wind pick up a bit, I can reef the headsail a bit.

SeaBelle has neither pole nor roller furling but I often sail a friend's boat, Moondance, that does.

Dean Abramson · Post by **Dean Abramson** » Aug 22nd, '07, 08:13

Like Warren, I am not a big fan of dead downwind sailing. I do find it interesting, however, that the yankee on our current boat is a bit easier to keep flying wing and wing, without a pole, than the jibs on our 25D. I think this may be because the point of maximum depth is up higher, where it catches a bit more wind.

On a twisty course, though, I would probably rig a preventer and use just the main, if I can mostly avoid putting the stern through the wind. On the kind of long passages someone like Russell makes, though, the chafe would dissuade me from doing this.

Russell, does your staysail still have its boom (like mine)? I would like to try winging the headsails, but I assumed I would not be able to get the staysail out enough, because of the lifelines. Or do I rig a longer outhaul, then extend the boom as far as it goes, and then let the outhaul out to move the sail beyound the lifelines? I have never heard of this, but it just occurred to me.

Dean

rtbates · Post by **rtbates** » Aug 22nd, '07, 08:41

http://www.archive.org/movies/thumbnail ... an_sailing

http://www.archive.org/details/Downwind_ocean_sailing

Wayne Grenier · Post by **Wayne Grenier** » Aug 22nd, '07, 10:02

I just ran from Quisett Harbor in Falmouth back to South Dartmouth yesterday afternoon-alone and running dead down wind with just the mainsail up and I agree-sailing dead downwind sucks-one problem is the stays are so far aft the sail rides against the spreaders before you can let it out very far. The 2nd problem is the dinghy gets thrown into the swim ladder ocasionaly and the 3rd problem is its just plain difficult to steer. I use just the main under the theory that if the wind shifts or drops and I need to put up the headsail, its easier than hoisting the mainsail. Either one will work but frankly I am much more comfortable sailing the boat on a reach or a beat, you have much more control.

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