Our Yachts are getting older...check your hoses.........

[Bill - Dulcie]

If you have more than one battery, wire each discretely circuited bilge pump to a different battery, so that if a float switch jams and runs its battery down, the second pump will be unaffected.

[RIKanaka]

"Let me make myself perfectly clear".

For the elucidation of those youngsters that haven't reached the magic number of 50 years of age, and for those of the distaff side who are loathe to admit it, those famous words were used by my patron saint, St. Richard "Tricky" Nixon (toss up between him and Rube Goldberg) as a preface to one of his whoppers.

Ah, me. The glory days are long past.


O J

OJ,

Having recently made 51, I got the "Tricky Dick" reference (my favorite bumper sticker from that era was "Dick Nixon Before He Dicks You"). What I'm still trying to figure out is the "6 inch visor ... smothered with scrambled eggs..."

[Oswego John]

Aloha Bob,

A lot of old geezer vets, especially swabbys, have a big smile on their puss right now, wondering how I'm going to answer this.

The next time you're out sailing, take special note of the big oaf at the flying bridge wheel of his 3 1/2 story, floating, apartment house. Chances are good to excellent that he's wearing a Bull Halsey (look him up) $69.95, baseball type cap with gold braid all over the peak. (visor)

I understand that wearing one gives a person the right to think that he actually is a real, live captain. The more scrambled eggs, the greater amount of authority and prestige, and the inalienable right to swamp you as he runs you down.

You ask - What's scrambled eggs (egg salad) on a 6" visor?
Ans. Gold braid on brass without zincs.
And that's the rest of the story.

Have a good weekend,
Aloha
O J

[Steve Laume]

I just replace the Whale manual bilge pump in my cockpit this spring. I couldn't find a rebuild kit for the model 8 so I got a butt kickin model 10. That seems to be all the pump I will ever need on Raven. I do have two other board mounted spares in case the main pump fails and the bucket doesn't work. With a board mounted pump I could empty bilge fro the cabin instead of the cockpit if situation demanded it. I never could figure out how an electric pump would save me but I have toyed with the idea.

Where I could use an electric pump is in my dinghy! A nice little deep cycle gel battery and an electric bilge pump would save me lots of bailing. A cover would probably be money better spent. If there was never any water in there the dog wouldn't have such a great place to get a drink.

It feels kind of nice coming out on the electric pump issue. I feel liberated, Steve.

[Carter Brey]

...which in my neck of the woods means something you skim off of the top of the water in your bilge.

I'm shocked... shocked to see such flagrant, unashamed Luddism on display. I'm holding my hands over the eyes of my little Rule 1100 electric bilge pump at this moment, lest it read these dyspeptic tirades and keel over from fright. It's a creature of delicate sensibility. Its little float switch would not survive the shock.

Now, I am the first to admit that I did not install the electronic bilge pump in my boat. It was there when I bought her and, although I might not have installed one myself-- I do, after all, still dart suspicious and contemptuous looks at my headsail furler as something only barely tolerated on my boat as an intruder upon purist sailing aesthetics-- I would be loathe to remove it at this point.

Consider the lowly electric bilge pump. Actually, is there any other kind? I digress. Ahem. Consider the lowly electric bilge pump and its many uses. First, of course, is its function as one element of a belt-and-suspenders (this is a pleasant, non-Latinate and unthreateningly colloquial way of saying redundant, for those of us who imagine ourselves to be avatars of a simpler, more direct approach to things in general) safety system. Its presence does not demand that it be used. It is simply there, like the poor. Did I mention that I also have a cockpit-operated Whale manual bilge pump on my boat? It is my favored method of bilge evacuation. The repetitive action of the handle soothes my nerves and tones my forearm. Should a rubber diaphragm or a check valve or a hose fitting on that manual pump fail, however, there is still the redoubtable little red, white and blue plastic cylinder waiting patiently in the bilge, ready to lend an impeller to the unenviable task of keeping the cruel sea at bay. One more boulder behind which to hide during the long retreat, and a few more minutes afloat, minutes which might perhaps prove crucial to the survival of vessel and crew. May I submit that this redundancy is an important element of John Vigor's Black Box?

Then there are the other, less maritime uses to which my little electric bilge pump can be put. For example, in spinning up to speed, it emits a whine which hovers around an F-sharp above middle C. Add a minor third to this and you get a standard 440-cycle A natural. Perfect for tuning that onboard guitar you use for leading anchorage singalongs.

Unbolt the little device and you have, depending on the model, a makeshift rolling pin. Should you have an oven on board (and I realize that here I may be speaking to the empty rafters), and should you wish to make bread, you will never smite your forehead upon realizing that you left the rolling pin ashore. There is your rolling pin, and if it imparts a faint tang of diesel fuel and bilgewater to your dough, embrace it as part and parcel of the sailing experience.

Well, there you have it: the musings of one who, while perhaps not embracing with unalloyed enthusiasm the blessings of direct current, will attempt to place those little gizmos in a more positive context.

Carter Brey
Sabre 28 MkII #532 "Delphine"
City Island, NY

[Warren Kaplan]

Now, I am the first to admit that I did not install the electronic bilge pump in my boat. It was there when I bought her and, although I might not have installed one myself-- I do, after all, still dart suspicious and contemptuous looks at my headsail furler as something only barely tolerated on my boat as an intruder upon purist sailing aesthetics--

You all must realize that Cap'n Brey makes his living and is attached at the hip to a piece of Renaissance Lumber produced by a master named Guadganini way back in 1756. Is it any wonder that his soul had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the age of moderninity (uh...is that actually a word?).

But if he has been moved to install a high tech headsail furler on Delphine, a thought that was truly alien and blasphemous to him just a few short years ago when he and I spoke about similar considerations for Mary Ellen, then you know he has arrived in the 21st century, which should be enough to loosen the hold the past has on even the most intransigent traditionalists. Now, if I can only get him to give up his beloved parchment charts!

When I told Old Will that I couldn't believe Carter had put a furler on Delphine he looked back at me and said;

There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy!

Truly astounding!

[Michael Heintz]

I am astounded by the response and opinion on bilge pumps.

I am low tech at heart........however NOT to have a electric pump on board, when you can......seems unresponsible.....it might just save your yacht....

[Len]

O.K. so my argument for comfort and convenience didn't get much (any) support. I still believe that a (few) electric pumps (or even one of those mechanical pumps that run off the engine shaft) should be on any boat that heads to sea. If you are always in sight of land maybe you can justify not being prepared for a hole in your boat. You needn't hit a coral head- a worn hose will deliver a lot of water, a lone log with a pointy end hitting you at 7 knots can do some fair damage. Many of you single hand-one of them is going to be pretty busy trying to keep up with a small hole, let along something really serious. A two inch hole three feet below the water line admits 8160 gallons an hour! A hand pump will void 1500 gallons per hour at (zero lift) if you can keep that handle moving. Add several feet of lift from bilge to overboard and a tired sailor... well.
This being said and done I do sail a boat that clings to the past , rather than a sleek fin keel lightweight. I can appreciate and admire a gaff rigged schooner or a brigantine as well as the next CDer.

[Michael Heintz]

Len, & all.......

Why NOT have electric bilge pumps (other than not having the battery reserve to do so)......I am totally on board with the concept of being self reliance with every conceivable incident than can happen. I have spent numerous days weeks and more on my own and have survived. I just want to take advantage of every tool available to me and not live in a fantasy world of what it was in the OLD days. I come from a heritage of sea Captains that dates back to the 1700's and its an evolving thing that requires us to take advantage of whats available to us.

So be it !!!

[Ann and David Brownlee]

We, too, are all-manual in the pump department. We have the original Whale (with a new diaphragm), a portable hand pump (also used in the dinghy), and a bucket. That means there is no cable between us and the dock, or between our imaginations and the terrestrial world. (But I digress.)

It never seemed to us that a leak could be slow enough for an electric pump to be the solution.

Our launch this spring (well, March, actually) highlighted the problem. Our very competent yard directed an inexperienced employee to close seacocks after the launch. He did just that, including the cockpit scuppers. It was several days (and a big snow storm) before we could visit, and we found that the cockpit was full to the brim and that water had overflowed through the seat lockers and filled the bilge up to within a ten inches or so of the floorboards. Quite a shock.

I don't think that a small electric pump cold have done much more than mask the problem, which, disappointingly, the yard failed to notice (although we were sunk down below the aft waterline).

Of course, this opinion is based on our CD's usually very tight skin. As on our previous 25 and 27, in hot weather, the bilge water on our 31 will evaporate until the bilge is bone dry.

Of course, we have newish hoses on everything, and a stuffing box that only drips when the shaft is turning. Just now, the stuffing box is tightened to the max (as we discovered during our spring cruise), so we'll have to keep an eye on it between now and hauling at Thanksgiving.

[Dean Abramson]

Our first boat had no electric pump.

The second one came with one, but the float switch died and I did not replace it; but I still used the pump when I did not feel like pumping and knew my batteries were in good shape.

This boat came with an operating pump and switch, but last year I never left it in the auto position, because I had not yet determined if there was a check valve, and I did not want it to "cycle" and kill the battery. (That happened once on Boat # 2.).

Turns out we have a check valve, so this year I leave it in Auto. But I have no illusions. No one is going to check my boat just because it is pumping water out; there are enough air-conditioned boats up here that do that all the time, at least at docks.

I see the electric pump as a convenience, nothing more. I want my boat to live longer than my battery's last frantic attempt to keep it afloat a few more hours.

Vigilance and preventive maintenance are what keeps boats afloat.

Dean

[mahalocd36]

There's probably no right answer to this, kind of like the wheel vs. tiller debate, and each captain is responsible for their own yacht. Boats have sailed for centuries without electric bilge pumps, chartplotters, radar, etc.

I've been hesitating to post on this thread but I guess I have to echo the sentiments of Carter and Michael - I'm missing what harm it does to have an electric bilge pump. Of course assuming you have it connected properly to remove any concerns about electrolysis, which is the only reason posted for not having one other than not feeling the need for one.
BTW, here is one article on that subject:
http://boatingsailing.suite101.com/arti ... is_in_boat

There have been implications in a few of the posts that someone that has electric pumps are somehow lax in their boat maintenance and sitting around fat, dumb and happy, feeling that their boat will never sink.

I have no delusions of convincing anyone who doesn't want one to put one in, nor any delusions that it's some sort of guarantee that my boat will never sink. It's just one of the tools available that it seems to make sense to make use of if possible. To me, it doesn't do any harm having one (or 2), and the worst case scenario is that it doesn't work and you are in the same situation as if you had no electric pump.

Our main reason for having one is not just when it's sitting on a mooring, but to aid in some sort of emergency while we are aboard. In fact, our second, high-capacity pump, which is mounted higher in the bilge, is not on 'auto' for the reasons that some of you have said: unless you are aboard and can do something about the problem, it's probably not going to save your boat. I think everyone agrees on that - you need to fix the hole in the boat at that point.

But - then - As Len said, how long can you physically hand pump? And, how do you go about 1) finding the leak, 2) fixing the leak, 3) steering/keeping watch, 4) while you are pumping? You can't always assume you have other crew well and available to do that. If I can have some mechanical assistance to extract the water to a level so you can figure out where the water is coming from, instead of exhausting yourself in the process, why not take advantage of it?
Yes, we have buckets (2 + a canvas), sponges, a 'thirstmate' hand pump (works well in the dinghy), and a recently rebuilt + rehosed gusher 10 hand bilge pump. Having an electric bilge pump doesn't free you from carrying this stuff.

In fact, among you non-auto-bilge-pumpers, there's at least some support for having one for emergencies:

The nearest I ever came to an electric bilge pump was when I bought my CD25D. The previous owner had mounted a 12-volt pump on a wooden board. The wires to the pump terminated in alligator clips that fit a battery terminal. It could be used to wash down the deck or pump the bilge at any time. I sold it with the boat, but I'm thinking of making up one of my own for emergencies.
It's a pretty good idea.

If there's any water in the bilge we know we need to find out where it's coming from and take appropriate action.

Yes, of course, having a electric pump doesn't free you from this. Though it might make it easier to find out where it's coming from by emptying the bilge quicker and freeing you to look for it.

The seacocks are ALWAYS closed when nobody's aboard.

Ditto. And the hoses and clamps are well maintained as well...

Our policy seems to be to do all we can to pre-empt trouble....

I contend that most people with electric bilge pumps also try to preempt trouble. There are exceptions of course.

I guess that the point that I'm trying to make is that if trouble can be detected early on, it's a lot easier to rectify the problem before it gets out of hand.

Having an electric bilge pump helps in that, by signalling there's a problem early. Especially if you have a counter on it, it doesn't mask the problem. It helps with damage control. I mean, how often do you physically look in the bilge? Even a few times a day (as we do) you might miss something. Even without a counter, if you are aboard and the pump comes on (you see the light, hear it running, see the water coming out, etc), it signals you to take some action to figure out why. It's like a pair of eyes constantly monitoring the bilge.

If I had arrived a day or two later, the best case scenario would have been extensive water damage to the interior teak which I had just refinished. Worst case... well, we won't go there.

For a leak like Carter's, or the folks in Maryland, if he had waited a little longer, the water might have done damage to the boat, even if just cosmetic. A bilge pump would have kept up with it, and with a counter, you would have known there was a problem.

For us, on one occasion, it at least saved us from emptying one of our water tanks by mistake. It would not have been a crisis, but an inconvenience. Mistakes happen, especially with non-sailors aboard.

I would much rather have an electric bilge pump and never need it, than need it and not have it.

Again, I'm sure no one is going to run out and put in a electric bilge pump. But I also hope those people with them don't go rip them out and throw them overboard.

Let's go sailing, it's a beautiful day!

[Boyd]

Hi All:

When I was shown this boat by the broker before I bought it. I called his attention to the stuffing box whick was leaking a lot more than normal. His most memorable comment was "the (single at that time) bilge pump is working and the boat is hooked to shore power, whats the problem". When we came back 2 weeks later to do an initial survey, the bilge was full to just under the sole. The bilge pump impellor had locked up. Sure illustrated to the value of multiple layers of backup. Had we not shown up when we did serious damage or worse could have occured.

I keep a totally dry bilge. Its SOP on my boat. Any water appears and I find its source and correct the problem.

Besides that I have:

1. 750 gal electric float switch controlled pump in the bottom of the bilge. It will keep up with an open 1/2" hole 18" below the water line by itself.

2. 3000 gal sensor controlled pump about 6" higher than the bottom of the bilge.

3. A series of valves and a pickup that would allow my engine raw water pump to draw from the bilge.

4. The shower/condensate/refrigerator drain sump has a 500 gal float switch controlled pump can be enlisted in seconds by unscrewing the access cover. The sump is in the high end of the bilge. If water rises to the level of the depressed shower floor it will work also.

5. A manual Whale pump mounted for use in the cockpit.

6. A thursty mate that can be used inside the boat if the companionway boards were in place and discharged to the galley sink.

So I have six ways to pump the bilge, two of them automatic. Thats a total of 4250 gph of electric pumps. The electric pumps are hooked to a 400 amp hr battery bank.

What I am buying is TIME to find a leak if the worst happens offshore, or a few extra days if something unexpected happens while I am off the boat. Yep I'm anal.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

[Michael Heintz]

Melissa your right on !!!

I didn't want to get to whack out about the topic, but ........

You have said it all and Boyd really "get's" it...all about buying time!!!!

[Dean Abramson]

When I said I think of my electric pump mainly as a convenience, I was really thinking about it in terms of how I mainly interact with it, which is an easy way to pump the bilge; as opposed to thinking it is all that likely to save my boat if something happens while I am away. My boat is way out on a mooring, and I don't have a huge battery bank; so realistically, the stars would have to be aligned just right for the float switch to save my boat in that situation.

However, knowing I have something I can just turn on and run while I look for a leak in an emergency is something else! I wish I had two! Or like Bruce and Cathy are doing, also have an engine-driven pump too.

I was interested in Cathy's comment about closing all seacocks. In my old 25D, if I left one of the cockpit drains open, it could flood the cabin by way of a tee to the galley sink drain hose. That would not happen on the 31, but the cockpit can fill with rain water. Does the 32's cockpit have above-waterline drains which do not use seacocks?

Or do folks think that a cockpit full of water is not going to sink the boat, so the hell with it, and close the cockpit drain seacocks? So far, I have always left at least one cockpit drain seacock open while I am away from the boat, but I am re-thinking that.

Dean