Not to beat a dead horse,
BUt I am still having problems with my diesel. Every time I think I have it licked, another trouble arises. Upon seeing that my diesel started fine when I went directly to the fuel filter bypassing the fuel tank, I removed the fuel tank. I used a method of cleaning the tank that I seen here on a previous post.
I took a 6 foot chain and placed inside the tank and shook it added some detergent and hosed it out until all the soap was cleared. Alot of brown gook came out, I also cleaned out the canister and fuel filter. I dried the tank by using a heat gun and placing the tank by a dehumidifier over nite.
After placing the tank back into my CD 27 I hooked up all the hoses and bleed the system once again, the fuel successfully passed thru the second fuel filter, before the fuel injection pump and at the fuel injector. Fine, but the diesel wouldn't kick over.
Then I removed the hose from the diesel tank and placed it into the 5 gallon can as I did yesterday with great results. But now the diesel wouldn't start.
I rebleed the fuel line again, but this time I got no fuel coming out of the screw above the second fuel filter. I then removed the hose from the first fuel filter and placed it directly into a container of diesel. I pumped the lever at the fuel pump but nothing would get sucked up. I removed the hose coming out of the fuel pump towards the second fuel filter and still no fuel came thru the fuel pump. No matter what I did the nothing got sucked up or vacuumed thru the fuel pump.
Could the fuel pump all of sudden gone bad or is possible the fuel pump got clogged with the same stuff that was in the tank??
SOrry for the persistence, but Its getting a little frustrating.
Ron
question on fuel pump??
Moderator: Jim Walsh
Comment
I hae seen hoses clogged, so you might want to blow them out, or replace them. They do break down and disintegrate on the inside.
Start at the engine and work back to the tank, again. Make sure everything ids fine. To check the pump and on engine parts try new hose from the pump to your jerry can.
Good luck
Start at the engine and work back to the tank, again. Make sure everything ids fine. To check the pump and on engine parts try new hose from the pump to your jerry can.
Good luck
Jim Davis
S/V Isa Lei
S/V Isa Lei
hoses..
Hello Jim,
I have replaced 3 hoses, from the out take of the tank to the 1st filter and from the filter to the fuel pump. Also replaced the return from the second filter back to the tank.
I blew thru the hose from the fuel pump back to the tank and also back thru the fuel pump.
Ron
I have replaced 3 hoses, from the out take of the tank to the 1st filter and from the filter to the fuel pump. Also replaced the return from the second filter back to the tank.
I blew thru the hose from the fuel pump back to the tank and also back thru the fuel pump.
Ron
Try...........
.........Filling your jug and place it above the engine. Draw fuel through a hose from the jug to the pump (syphon) and see what happens. This may get you past the lift pump, and hopefully test it. You could also try an outboard squeeze bulb as a pump. If you do this don't get carried away with pressure, just slow and easy. At this point be careful, you are dealig with expensive parts.
One other question Is there any chance you disturbed the timing?
If the engine runs you know what to replace. After that it is the injector pump and the high pressure side.
Perhaps time for a paid mechanic?
One other question Is there any chance you disturbed the timing?
If the engine runs you know what to replace. After that it is the injector pump and the high pressure side.
Perhaps time for a paid mechanic?
Jim Davis
S/V Isa Lei
S/V Isa Lei
fuel pump
_________________
Hey Jim,
I thought of trying to syphon fuel to the pump, but how do you connect the hose to the pump before you spill the fuel all over. Or, can you syphon the fuel thru the pump. The squeeze bulb sounds like a good idea.
I have gotten familiar with the fuel system some what in the last 3 weeks or so, but I don't know a thing about timing.
I had been working with a Mac Boring tech over the phone, but I have a 2 week wait for either one of the yanmar diesel Mechanics I contacted. So I have been trying to clear the tbl myself.
I thought I had it yesterday, I started the yanmar some 5 or 6 times on the first shot over 2 hours, while I had the the hose from the primary filter routed to the 5 gallon can as opposed to the 12 gal fuel tank. No other variables changed from yesterday to today, but yet the fuel pump wont operate.
I'll try the syphon tomorrow and let you know,
Thanks,
Ron
Hey Jim,
I thought of trying to syphon fuel to the pump, but how do you connect the hose to the pump before you spill the fuel all over. Or, can you syphon the fuel thru the pump. The squeeze bulb sounds like a good idea.
I have gotten familiar with the fuel system some what in the last 3 weeks or so, but I don't know a thing about timing.
I had been working with a Mac Boring tech over the phone, but I have a 2 week wait for either one of the yanmar diesel Mechanics I contacted. So I have been trying to clear the tbl myself.
I thought I had it yesterday, I started the yanmar some 5 or 6 times on the first shot over 2 hours, while I had the the hose from the primary filter routed to the 5 gallon can as opposed to the 12 gal fuel tank. No other variables changed from yesterday to today, but yet the fuel pump wont operate.
I'll try the syphon tomorrow and let you know,
Thanks,
Ron
-
Andy Denmark
- Posts: 630
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:38
Careful
Hey Ron,
Something has bugged me since this thread began. It seems to me you're doing a lot of engine cranking. There can be a major problem with this. Some injection elbows (where raw water enters into the exhaust system) are designed to use the exhaust gasses coming from the (running) engine to blow the water out of the aft end of the exhaust pipe. When the engine doesn't start, and depending on the configuration of the exhaust pipe run, then the pressure isn't sufficient to blast the cooling water out and water can run back toward the engine. When the exhaust valves
open then this water can/will run into the cylinder. This will create a multitude of problems, most very bad.
It is important not to crank the engine more than a few seconds at a time without giving it a rest to let water drain. Continuous cranking is what can create the condition I've described (somewhat awkwardly) above.
Another thing that may help is to use a tiny shot of starting fluid to get a quick start. Don't use it continuously -- just a brief squirt in the air intake just before cranking. Sometimes this provides the impetus to get injector pump blocks, small bubbles, etc. to work their way through.You will perceive this as a "miss" or temporary slowing down of the engine as the bubble hits the injector.
This failing, I'd heed Jim Davis' sage advice and hire a diesel mechanic to help you solve this problem.
One more thing -- while you cleaned the tank, did you also clean (not just blow out) the lines? The gunk that gets stuck in them is very sticky but maleable (?) enough to clog lines when fuel is present.
Just some thoughts.........
Hope this helps
________
Mark Ix
Something has bugged me since this thread began. It seems to me you're doing a lot of engine cranking. There can be a major problem with this. Some injection elbows (where raw water enters into the exhaust system) are designed to use the exhaust gasses coming from the (running) engine to blow the water out of the aft end of the exhaust pipe. When the engine doesn't start, and depending on the configuration of the exhaust pipe run, then the pressure isn't sufficient to blast the cooling water out and water can run back toward the engine. When the exhaust valves
open then this water can/will run into the cylinder. This will create a multitude of problems, most very bad.
It is important not to crank the engine more than a few seconds at a time without giving it a rest to let water drain. Continuous cranking is what can create the condition I've described (somewhat awkwardly) above.
Another thing that may help is to use a tiny shot of starting fluid to get a quick start. Don't use it continuously -- just a brief squirt in the air intake just before cranking. Sometimes this provides the impetus to get injector pump blocks, small bubbles, etc. to work their way through.You will perceive this as a "miss" or temporary slowing down of the engine as the bubble hits the injector.
This failing, I'd heed Jim Davis' sage advice and hire a diesel mechanic to help you solve this problem.
One more thing -- while you cleaned the tank, did you also clean (not just blow out) the lines? The gunk that gets stuck in them is very sticky but maleable (?) enough to clog lines when fuel is present.
Just some thoughts.........
Hope this helps
________
Mark Ix
Last edited by Andy Denmark on Feb 13th, '11, 03:29, edited 1 time in total.
vent?
Have you checked the vent line for obstructions or the vent screen on the hull. Wasps love to build nests in / on them and this could explain why it works on a jug and not on the tank.
Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Fuel Pump
Quote Ron:
"I rebleed the fuel line again, but this time I got no fuel coming out of the screw above the second fuel filter. I then removed the hose from the first fuel filter and placed it directly into a container of diesel. I pumped the lever at the fuel pump but nothing would get sucked up. I removed the hose coming out of the fuel pump towards the second fuel filter and still no fuel came thru the fuel pump. No matter what I did the nothing got sucked up or vacuumed thru the fuel pump. "
Ron,
I think that maybe you should spend some time checking out your fuel pump and in doing so , eliminate it from the source of trouble.
Some thoughts that come to mind. I don't know what type system, or the make of your pump. Whatever, they all basically do the same job
#1 Is the pump working? Can you hear it, feel it pumping?
#2 Is it electrically driven or cam driven? With the key turned to ON, is there electrical power to the pump? No loose connections, no corrosion at terminals. Full voltage at pump.
#3 If pump is a diaphragm type, check for pin holes or tears in it. If gear driven, check condition of gears or impellers.
#4 Have you checked for steady stream of fuel at the pump output?
#5 Have you checked bypass return line?
I'll be following your posts with interest.
Good luck,
O J
"I rebleed the fuel line again, but this time I got no fuel coming out of the screw above the second fuel filter. I then removed the hose from the first fuel filter and placed it directly into a container of diesel. I pumped the lever at the fuel pump but nothing would get sucked up. I removed the hose coming out of the fuel pump towards the second fuel filter and still no fuel came thru the fuel pump. No matter what I did the nothing got sucked up or vacuumed thru the fuel pump. "
Ron,
I think that maybe you should spend some time checking out your fuel pump and in doing so , eliminate it from the source of trouble.
Some thoughts that come to mind. I don't know what type system, or the make of your pump. Whatever, they all basically do the same job
#1 Is the pump working? Can you hear it, feel it pumping?
#2 Is it electrically driven or cam driven? With the key turned to ON, is there electrical power to the pump? No loose connections, no corrosion at terminals. Full voltage at pump.
#3 If pump is a diaphragm type, check for pin holes or tears in it. If gear driven, check condition of gears or impellers.
#4 Have you checked for steady stream of fuel at the pump output?
#5 Have you checked bypass return line?
I'll be following your posts with interest.
Good luck,
O J
-
Joe Mac Phee
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Feb 27th, '05, 12:37
- Location: Iolanthe
YSM fuel problem
Ron,
I have arrived at this thread a little late and apologize if replowing old ground. My 1977 ketch has a YSB-12 which is similar to yours, differing in some details.
IF the boat is in the water, before doing any of your diagnostics, shut off the raw water intake. On my YSB, you run the risk of flooding the cylinder from water backing up in the muffler (potentially very destructive). When the engine starts, you can open the raw water intake.
One of the things to realize is that these engines really SIP fuel. Mine will literally run for 15 minutes on the fuel in the hoses (don’t ask how I know this). This can be confusing because you think that you have found the air leak because it has run so long.
On my YSB (and I think on your YSM), the excess fuel from the injector does not go back to the tank (as on most diesels) but instead goes back to the top of the (engine mounted) filter. This perverse practice has the effect of putting any air bubbles back into circulation to the injector pump and really puts a premium on getting ALL of the air out.
The lift pump on my engine is electric, but on yours, I think that the pump is mechanical and is driven off the cam. The mechanical pump has a lever to manually pump the fuel when the engine is not running. One trick I have heard is that if the lever is difficult to operate, the pump is probably on the peak of the cam. If you rotate the crankshaft a little, the pump will be on the back of the cam and the lever will be easier to operate.
Another trick is to temporarily replace your fuel line with clear plastic tubing and you can see if there are bubbles. On my YSB, the only practical place the tubing is at the inlet to the lift pump. If you have an air leak, it has to be on the suction side of the fuel delivery system. The rest of the fuel system is under pressure and will leak fuel out and not air in.
On my engine, the control that looks like a choke cable is a compression release (on my boat, it is not labeled, you somehow have to be born with the knowledge)
. The compression release is sometimes used under hard starting conditions to get the engine spinning fast. The engine will not start until the control is released.
On my engine, it will not start unless you advance the throttle at least some (I also think you cannot completely bleed it unless the throttle is advanced.)
Good luck. These engines are very simple and usually very reliable. Do not give up on it
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30/K
I have arrived at this thread a little late and apologize if replowing old ground. My 1977 ketch has a YSB-12 which is similar to yours, differing in some details.
IF the boat is in the water, before doing any of your diagnostics, shut off the raw water intake. On my YSB, you run the risk of flooding the cylinder from water backing up in the muffler (potentially very destructive). When the engine starts, you can open the raw water intake.
One of the things to realize is that these engines really SIP fuel. Mine will literally run for 15 minutes on the fuel in the hoses (don’t ask how I know this). This can be confusing because you think that you have found the air leak because it has run so long.
On my YSB (and I think on your YSM), the excess fuel from the injector does not go back to the tank (as on most diesels) but instead goes back to the top of the (engine mounted) filter. This perverse practice has the effect of putting any air bubbles back into circulation to the injector pump and really puts a premium on getting ALL of the air out.
The lift pump on my engine is electric, but on yours, I think that the pump is mechanical and is driven off the cam. The mechanical pump has a lever to manually pump the fuel when the engine is not running. One trick I have heard is that if the lever is difficult to operate, the pump is probably on the peak of the cam. If you rotate the crankshaft a little, the pump will be on the back of the cam and the lever will be easier to operate.
Another trick is to temporarily replace your fuel line with clear plastic tubing and you can see if there are bubbles. On my YSB, the only practical place the tubing is at the inlet to the lift pump. If you have an air leak, it has to be on the suction side of the fuel delivery system. The rest of the fuel system is under pressure and will leak fuel out and not air in.
On my engine, the control that looks like a choke cable is a compression release (on my boat, it is not labeled, you somehow have to be born with the knowledge)
. The compression release is sometimes used under hard starting conditions to get the engine spinning fast. The engine will not start until the control is released. On my engine, it will not start unless you advance the throttle at least some (I also think you cannot completely bleed it unless the throttle is advanced.)
Good luck. These engines are very simple and usually very reliable. Do not give up on it
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD-30/K
Lots of good suggestions and warnings,
I did a couple of things this afternoon,
I replaced the 3 fuel hoses again, because I thought the originally replacements were not snug enough.
I checked the vent and its hose and it was clear.
I left the raw intake value closed today, I just hope I didn't already cause any problems with the cylinder or muffler.
I also tried syphoning the out take hose from the primary filter to the fuel pump. I got some fuel this time on the first step of bleeding process, by loosening the screw above the 2nd fuel filter. There was also plenty of fuel at the entrance to the fuel injector pump and the entrance to the fuel injector, but the diesel still wouldn't turn over. I have a feeling the manual fuel pump is working but barely.
I also tried routing a hose form the 5 gallon fuel can to the fuel pump, but the diesel wouldn't kick over.
And this comment by Joe Mac Phee really sent it home....
One of the things to realize is that these engines really SIP fuel. Mine will literally run for 15 minutes on the fuel in the hoses (don’t ask how I know this). This can be confusing because you think that you have found the air leak because it has run so long.
I think I was there about 3 or 4 times in the last 2 weeks.
I am not giving up, but I think I finally got a diesel mechanic from Mack Boring to come out this wednesday, who specializes in old yanmars. He has another call in the same area.
Thanks again,
and I'll let let you know how it turns out.
Ron
I did a couple of things this afternoon,
I replaced the 3 fuel hoses again, because I thought the originally replacements were not snug enough.
I checked the vent and its hose and it was clear.
I left the raw intake value closed today, I just hope I didn't already cause any problems with the cylinder or muffler.
I also tried syphoning the out take hose from the primary filter to the fuel pump. I got some fuel this time on the first step of bleeding process, by loosening the screw above the 2nd fuel filter. There was also plenty of fuel at the entrance to the fuel injector pump and the entrance to the fuel injector, but the diesel still wouldn't turn over. I have a feeling the manual fuel pump is working but barely.
I also tried routing a hose form the 5 gallon fuel can to the fuel pump, but the diesel wouldn't kick over.
And this comment by Joe Mac Phee really sent it home....
One of the things to realize is that these engines really SIP fuel. Mine will literally run for 15 minutes on the fuel in the hoses (don’t ask how I know this). This can be confusing because you think that you have found the air leak because it has run so long.
I think I was there about 3 or 4 times in the last 2 weeks.
I am not giving up, but I think I finally got a diesel mechanic from Mack Boring to come out this wednesday, who specializes in old yanmars. He has another call in the same area.
Thanks again,
and I'll let let you know how it turns out.
Ron
-
Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Please
Ron,
Please do let us know what the Mack Boring guy says. It does sound like it may be time for a hired gun. Best of luck!
Dean
Please do let us know what the Mack Boring guy says. It does sound like it may be time for a hired gun. Best of luck!
Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
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photochief
- Posts: 7
- Joined: May 7th, '07, 17:02
- Location: Bristol 27
Papa's Pride
Little Creek Amphibious Base
My method got me out of port.
Hi Ron,
My $0.02 is as follows. My 27 bristol has BMW 12 hp engine. When I bought boat I began having fuel problems also. I decided to get a portable outboard fuel tank with hose and squeeze bulb. Hooked it up and it works like a charm. NO fuel problems since. I had good intentions of cleaning tank and lines, etc. but have yet to get around to it. My regular tanks are not removable for easy cleaning. However, I can now use the boat w/o worry of stalling out somewhere or becoming frustrated. Sure, I don't have 20 gallons of fuel but I don't need that much as yet. Three gallons lasts all summer. You can put the tank(s) in appropriate locations. I chose to put in a cockpit locker above the engine for gravity feed so no worries about air leaks or weak fuel pumps either. A three gallon tank of fuel works find for me and that quantity will not last long enough to go bad. If I were to need more for a long cruise for example, I could store more tanks in the boat. Now I just need to work up to cleaning the tank, lines, etc. at my leisure. I check for leaks with flashlight before each start-up. The hose is relative short and only one connection so only takes a minute.
PhotoChief
My $0.02 is as follows. My 27 bristol has BMW 12 hp engine. When I bought boat I began having fuel problems also. I decided to get a portable outboard fuel tank with hose and squeeze bulb. Hooked it up and it works like a charm. NO fuel problems since. I had good intentions of cleaning tank and lines, etc. but have yet to get around to it. My regular tanks are not removable for easy cleaning. However, I can now use the boat w/o worry of stalling out somewhere or becoming frustrated. Sure, I don't have 20 gallons of fuel but I don't need that much as yet. Three gallons lasts all summer. You can put the tank(s) in appropriate locations. I chose to put in a cockpit locker above the engine for gravity feed so no worries about air leaks or weak fuel pumps either. A three gallon tank of fuel works find for me and that quantity will not last long enough to go bad. If I were to need more for a long cruise for example, I could store more tanks in the boat. Now I just need to work up to cleaning the tank, lines, etc. at my leisure. I check for leaks with flashlight before each start-up. The hose is relative short and only one connection so only takes a minute.
PhotoChief
Last edited by photochief on May 25th, '07, 16:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Al Levesque
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 09:00
- Location: Athena CD33 #94 Salem MA
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photochief
- Posts: 7
- Joined: May 7th, '07, 17:02
- Location: Bristol 27
Papa's Pride
Little Creek Amphibious Base
3 gallon fuel tank update
Kurt sent me a PM asking about how I handled the diesel return line. Any newbies like me out there listen up. If you consider using the small tank idea it does work great but you also need a diesel return line to the small tank. I neglected to mention it in previous post. Not a big deal to engineer with the right 3 gallon plastic tank. Send me a PM if interested and I'll splain it. 
PhotoChief
PhotoChief